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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







I am not sure where to put this, I apologize if its in the wrong forum.

So, for lictors to use their deepstrike ability they need to do it into area terrain. There is no area terrain in 5th ed right, or is it just that area terrain no longer blocks LOS? I would guess that if there just isn't anything classified as area terrain than players running lictors will have to wait for the FAQ, or come up with a house rule.

In that case the tricky part is to determine how to classify terrain as a piece that a Lictor can pop out of. It wouldn't do to have them fire out of any wall, barrel, or single rock in the game I imagine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/06/14 16:38:37


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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

There is indeed still area terrain. It just doesn't block LOS automatically anymore.

The real question is if the Lictor is going to have to take a dangerous terrain test for Deep Striking into terrain as that's the new basic rule in v5.


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Of course. No one is exempt without a special rule.

   
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Infiltrating Broodlord





Mordheim/Germany

Yes, because there is always a chance that the lictor slips and falls flat on his feeder tendrils...

I think this will be faq'ed soon.

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







Stelek wrote:Of course. No one is exempt without a special rule.


I agree with Schepp that this should be FAQed. However until then the lictor will have to chance falling out of trees from time to time.

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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2008/06/14 18:20:59


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I think an FAQ is obviously on the way concerning this considering it is one of the only units which COULD deepstrike into terrain in 4th edition (as well as having to do so) without penalty of dealth from the impassable type.

BUT... until then it's apparent that they will still Deepstrike into area terrain, but have to take a test for doing so (unless it is impassable area terrain- which causes them no issue or problem).

Ugh. Some pulled teeth on a unit which many consider to be on the verge of not being cost effective already.

At least the Lictor can tank bust those pieces of armor hanging out in/araound cover!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/06/14 23:47:06


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It's not on the verge of "not being cost effective", it's completely worthless.

Although I wonder if they get a +2 to their cover save for being shot at through another unit. It's basically a constant 2+ cover save.

Went digging through my old posts, and guess what? I've been hating on mat ward since before it was cool

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Of course they get a +2 bonus to their cover save. As long as it is a cover save, regardless of source, it is eligible, with the exception of their 'natural' 5+ cover save.

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Sickening Carrion




Ive had two games using two, and they are a little better than in 4th edition - although we played itt hey can deep strike into terrain.

In the first game, my opponent deployed tanks in cover to blaze away at the swarm - turn 2 one lictor pops up and destroys a baal predator, while the other one immobilizes and destroys the assault cannon on the other, finishing it off in the next turn - he got shot up by the heavy bolters but the 2+ cover save kept it alive.

In the second game against an Ork horde, the preferred enemy re-rolls on my hormagaunts proved very nasty (I have a lot of S4 hormagaunts = orks dying in droves), and interestingly, despite the changes to rending, Lictors now statistically do more damage then previously to MEQ (now the expected value is over 1 wound per turn, while previously it was under) and really make a mess o unarmoured orks.

Pretty limited usage I know, but so far im liking them a little more than last edition.
   
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With countercharge and casulty rules the lictors seems to be doing very poor in any assult nowdays, since he lacks any survivability there. The changes in terrain and DS should also make it a bit harder to land them where you want.
   
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He never really could. The Lictor will shine if you can get him into assault at the same time as a unit of Gaunts or Warriors where here can give them all Preferred Enemy.

Didn't they change how reserves come in now? No longer rolling but on set turns?

 
   
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I think a licor or two will be good for popping tanks skulking in cover and for supporting assaults with tendrils. I plan on trying them out at least

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






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Aduro wrote:

Didn't they change how reserves come in now? No longer rolling but on set turns?


No, you are mistaken.

It's just that reserves automatically arrive on turn 5 if they haven't already.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/06/16 09:31:34


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I think Lictors should be a bit better in 5th.

I stopped using them in 4th ed, after I had about a 50% loss rate on deepstrike - in order to get them close enough to assault the enemy, they'd often scatter right on top of the enemy. In 5th, if that happens it's only a 33% chance of dying outright instead of 100%. The 2+ cover save from hiding behind other squads will be useful, though T4 W2 still isn't terribly survivable. The bonus to a reserve roll will be extra nice for scuttling stealers to come on from the sides on turn 2.

Their main use will still be antivehicular. Since close combat attacks hit rear armor from any angle, you don't have to deep strike in a way to line up a rear armor charge anymore. Several S6 vs AV10 attacks should do something more often than not. They should still probably be run in pairs to maximize their effect.

-S

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Strangelooper wrote:I think Lictors should be a bit better in 5th.

I stopped using them in 4th ed, after I had about a 50% loss rate on deepstrike - in order to get them close enough to assault the enemy, they'd often scatter right on top of the enemy. In 5th, if that happens it's only a 33% chance of dying outright instead of 100%.


Just remember that the other two options are; Opponent places Lictor (bye bye Lictor) or it goes back in Reserve.

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Steelmage99 wrote:
Strangelooper wrote:I think Lictors should be a bit better in 5th.

I stopped using them in 4th ed, after I had about a 50% loss rate on deepstrike - in order to get them close enough to assault the enemy, they'd often scatter right on top of the enemy. In 5th, if that happens it's only a 33% chance of dying outright instead of 100%.


Just remember that the other two options are; Opponent places Lictor (bye bye Lictor) or it goes back in Reserve.


True, but neither of those two options are quite as bad as "dead lictor". Back in reserve = much much better than "dead Lictor". If opponent gets to place the Lictor, then he has to find a piece of area terrain to place it in. If he places it within 12" of one of his own vehicles, the Lictor might be able to assault it (run + assault). If he places it off to the other end of the board, far away from his own forces - well, in 5th, the Lictor might be able to run up over a few turns (taking his 2+ cover saves from the gaunts or stealers screening) and make contact (1 turn running + 1 turn assaulting = 19-24" threat over two turns).

In fact, the best place for an opponent to place a "deep strike accident" Lictor would be close to his own sizeable assault unit. If the Lictor charges, the assault unit gets to countercharge and will definitely surround and kill the T4 W2 5+sv Lictor, though they'll suffer 1-2 casualties (no more killzone-sniping) :( If the lictor tries to run away d6", the assault unit could still waltz over and use their flamer(s) and/or charge it.

Anyways, yes the deepstrike accident table is the suck for big units (especially termies on their new medium bases), where they now chance losing the whole unit instead of just 1-2 models. But for single-model units, it's actually better than before. 33% death > 100% death. Maybe I'll even start deepstriking my HF sentinel and/or Raveners again...



-S

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True, Strangelooper.

I wonder what happens if the opponent places the Lictor in such a way that any scatter is likely to bring the Lictor in contact with enemy models, impassable terrain or a board edge (assuming that it is possible)? I can only assume that the Lictor rolls on the Mishap table again. What do you think?

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When the opponent places it you don't scatter.

 
   
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OK. Thanks.

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Rockit wrote:
At least the Lictor can tank bust those pieces of armor hanging out in/araound cover!


Oh my... that is an interesting idea indeed. I hadn't thought of this!

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Regular Dakkanaut







One thing to remember about the lictor special rules is that it has to be deployed into area terrain, and can't scatter out of it. This limits crashing into units, and eliminates going off of the board edge. Obviously, if there is a unit in area terrain that your opponent is willing to risk having the lictor charge, than they can try to get the model to crash into them.

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The big problem I have is that with no option for flesh hooks Lictors will always be attacking at Initiative 1 if the Deep Strike, right?
This is what seems to make them usless (all arguments of cost effectiveness aside).

I didn't see anything in their special rules to eliminate this, but it would have been the same in 4th ed (granted mechanics are a bit different, Opponent gets I 10, vs. in 5th where attacker gets I 1).

I didn't see this discussed anywhere, which hopefully means I again have failed to grasp something that will allow the DS lictor not to have to assult through cover if he DS into area terrain.

Also, what was the difference with 4th ed. that didn't make them so ineffective? As I just glued up two shiney new Lictors last month I was expecting great things... I'm now a sad, sad, Synapse Creature.


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Mettius wrote:The big problem I have is that with no option for flesh hooks Lictors will always be attacking at Initiative 1 if the Deep Strike, right?
This is what seems to make them usless (all arguments of cost effectiveness aside).

Lictors come equipped with Flesh hooks; there's no option to buy them, because they are standard.

Also, what was the difference with 4th ed. that didn't make them so ineffective? As I just glued up two shiney new Lictors last month I was expecting great things... I'm now a sad, sad, Synapse Creature.

Rending was significantly downgraded. In 4e, any roll to hit of 6 was Rending; in 5e, rending requires a 6 on the to-wound roll.

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Janthkin wrote:
Lictors come equipped with Flesh hooks; there's no option to buy them, because they are standard.


Wow, I must work on my basic literacy. Just checked the codex.there it was plain as day. Sorry for the stupid question. he he.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/02/09 19:28:27


-Mettius 
   
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My question, is if they mishap, and the enemy places it; what takes precedence.

It can only DS into area terrain, but the enemy can place it 'anywhere'.

It seems there is no 'area terrain' restriction for the enemy placing the model.
   
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