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Yesterday I saw the 5th edition rule book for the first time. One point that stuck out was about models and bases. Somewhere in the beginning there's an entry that reads something to the effect of Models must be glued to the bases they come with to be used in a game. Well, most Eldar players I know don't glue their falcons to their bases. So I think there's going to be a lot of disqualification going on in a couple of months...

(I'm clearly joking about enforcing this rule on people with skimmers. I just thought it was funny.)

Later, it makes comment about removing skimmers from their flying base when wrecked/immobilized... so I'm guessing the they see a difference between bases and Games Workshop 5,000 Gigawatt Energized Flying Bases (tm).

The rule is that you have to mount all things with the bases they are supplied with. Creative modelling have been abused for as long as the game has existed.

hmmm... Is there also a rule that you are not allowed to then mount that smaller base it came with onto/into a larger base?

The book explicitly states "glue." I missed the part about taking the model off a flying base. The rule just says base it comes with. So if it came with two bases, I don't see why you can't use one or the other.

I guess the rule is there because players would have multiple stands for the models that they would alternate during a battle.

I have even heard of players that move the flyer in behind cover, onto a tall stand allowing the model a good LOS and at once shooting was over switch to a lower stand in order to claim no LOS to it.

Silly really as vehicles do not handle cover like that in 4th, the vehicle has a "hight" and so does the terrain.

I expect the rule is there to avoid such abuse.

Base abuse have been used both ways since the start of the game however as time goes by the abuse become more refined, this is why if I ever take part in a tourny I will model in banners on all my potential walkers to not have to have the anoying "I shoot between that sentinel/warwalker/wraithlord/...'s legs" problem.

They have tried the honor aproach putting into the rule that creative modelling and dramatic poses should not benefit or place you at a disadvantage however people cant seem to grasp that fact and thus they upp the rules to counter it.

I would never enforce a "glue your stand to the model" rule as most skimmer bases are taken apart for easy transportation but then again my sugestion is to bring along a small flask of wood glue if you know there is a problematic gamer in your group.

The rule said glue, it did not specify the glue must actually and permanently fix the two parts to each other.
A small dab of wood glue and the word of the rule is followed but as the glue does not really attack the base and model you can at the end of the game easilly take them apart again.

Against an anoying rulebender, powergamer or bad sport I may actually enforce this rule, he has to be rather extreme in his/her anoyance for me to go that far however.

The standard skimmer bases are not really up to repeated removal/replacing. After a short period of time the base and the model wear. The fit becomes loose and the skimmer falls off the base everytime you move the model. Annoying! Glueing in place leads to snappage. Really annoying!!

Got tired of my Tau vehicles doing this. Have run rare earth magnets on the stands for several years now with no problems. But I am amazed at how many skimmer armies at our lgs just have no stands at all. Most of the younger players run their eldar vehicles "on the ground". Aside from the fact that it does not look good on the tabletop, how is this going to effect TLOS?

GavDorro wrote:Got tired of my Tau vehicles doing this. Have run rare earth magnets on the stands for several years now with no problems.

This method right here is what I was going to suggest as I was reading through the thread but you beat me to it. I've done this "mod" to Phoenix's Eldar flyers (Falcons, Vypers and Jetbikes) and it works GREAT.

On a side note, I'm glad they put that in there. I was thinking about skimmers and people who take them on and off the bases to try and use the terrain to their advantage. I think I'd only enforce it in a tournament/competitive setting (or on the guy the first time he tries to adjust the height midgame), but either way I'm still glad its there.

You might also check out a company called Ninja Magic. They make magnetic adapters that attatch to the top of the flight stand and the bottom of the model. They are designed for use with spaceship games, but I used them on my jetbikes and they worked quite nicely.

Linky: Ninja Magic Magnetics

I just hope this "True LOS" thing doesn't cause things like the melted down GUO or crouching wraithlord.

Oh, it will... bet on it. The one minor saving grace is that LOS has to be traced from the head of whatever it is, so the lower it is, the less it can see. Of course, if it's not shooting, then why would it care... I foresee pancake-style CC nasties.

lord_sutekh wrote:Oh, it will... bet on it. The one minor saving grace is that LOS has to be traced from the head of whatever it is, so the lower it is, the less it can see. Of course, if it's not shooting, then why would it care... I foresee pancake-style CC nasties.

That GW never seems to grasp the very simple fact that gamers dont have honor is beyond me.

GW plays with honor, the radically changed rules for fouling in BB that happened a few years back is a perfect example.
On all the forums people raged about foul being too powerfull to wich GW simply replied working as intended.
Then a new staffmember came to GW, he was a BB fan favoring playing undead. He naturally joined the inhouse league and went at his buisness. Its worth noting that the way I heard it he started with a green team while many of the teams in the league had a few games or more under their belts. Having played out in the real world he played like us gamers play, ie he fouled!

In just one season he had managed to damage several of the teams to the point they could not come back and in came the "I got my eye on you!" rule.

It eleviated som of the problem, but far from all.

In short there will always be players that try to abuse the rules for an advantage.
No set of rules are afterall perfect.
Simple changes can however make huge and benifitial improvements.

For that simple reason I propose we here and now define a Dakka Dakka houserule that defines the LOS target spot on models.

For simplicity and fairness lets simply define a "LOS stick".

Take a normal model base (the 1" version) and glue a stick on it. Next stick a marker on top of the stick so that the center of the marker is a specific hight above the base and finally define the diameter and shape of the marker

Each model type will then have its LOS point defined by the LOS stick and not the model itself.

If a question of LOS comes upp simply remove the shooting and target models, replacing them with the apropriate LOS sticks and check them, if the LOS sticks show LOS then there is LOS. If they dont there isnt.

This way I would not be able to model my inzanelly tooled close combat monster crawling to deny LOS from shooting. Nomatter how I pose my model the LOS stick is what you use if LOS is questioned and thus any and every model using a single base type will have the same LOS point.

A normal model (a model using the 1" base) I propose should have this marker's center at 2cm above the base, the marker should be spherical and 1cm in diameter. The stick should preferably be transparent but black should work well too, the marker should be brightly coloured so as to make it easier to spot.

A model using the large base (say a mega nob, terminator...) I propose should have this marker centered at 2.5cm above the base and be 1.5cm in diameter.

In this way we could define all base types as well as vehicles (even if this is usually not a problem with vehicles) and will help with LOS issues.

True it is not a 100% fix, it will almost certainly be abusable but you get past the whole dramatic pose problem and the creative positioning issue

And yes it will if you use it all the time make things more complicated and take time thus slowing the game down but it is designed as a tirebreaker item, not a constant use item. Thus for 99% of the situations you will agree with each other but for that last 1% simply grab the LOS stick.

In fact Im going to post this as its own thread and see what people think.

As long as the LOS sticks are glued to their appropriate bases, I don't have a problem with it.

LoS stick wont work if you have to remove models.
it's too easy for someone to argue that you replaced the model in such as way as to either gain or deny an advantage.

I think the idea and concept behind "The LOS Stick" (Dakka Dakka tm) is good.
The practical implementation of said gaming aid won't be easy at all.

I just hope this "True LOS" thing doesn't cause things like the melted down GUO or crouching wraithlord.

There are a lot of people making peeker fexes as we post. So yes, expect to see all kinds of modeling silliness.