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All right.

Dark Angels-
I want to build a 1750pt. Dark Angel list for Tournament play, so it's gotta be competitve!
If anyone has any recommendations, please post them.
Also, is Azrael too costly to use as an HQ for that points level? I bought the figure, I want to use it because he's a tiny tank, and of course, the head of the chapter!
I may be able to rig up a Sammael in landspeeder, because he also is an awesome character!
I can list the figures I have to use, there are quite a few to be honest, so please feel free to take free reign with this, or let me know and Ill post a list.

Deathguard,
I also have a sizable Death Guard army from the 3rd/4th ed. codex (from '99). Is the army still playable under the new codex, or is it better to run plague marines with other cult/undivided troops?
Id definitely be interested in making a 1750pts list for these guys too, so if anyone can toss some ideas in, feel free!

Masque-
Other than the fact she has T3, is there any reason not to take the character? Is it better to just make her a Herald and rig her up in a chariot or something? I saw some interesting stats like I and A, the hit&run and of course 3x pavanes.....so, is there any redemption for this character....or did I just waste 12 bucks? lol.

Thanks all!!!!

Well currently the most competeive list is complete ravenguard lists. Not sure how they will hold up in 5th though I think they can still kick so tush.

Since the Masque isn't an IC she's real easy to shoot at and a 3+ save can only do so much to overcome T3, i.e. she ain't very competitive. Nonetheless, a cool fig, which in the long term is the #1 reason to purchase any fig.

The masque doesn't need to actually pavane to get results.

Whenever melee Daemons drop the enemy has the choice to either step back and use their long range weapons on them, or step up and rapid fire/assault. As a Daemon player you'd prefer that they choose the latter, since if they can get away and subject you to 2 rounds of shooting the game is basically over.

If the Masque is lurking in the second wave the opponent has no choice but to step forward, since they have no way of knowing that the Masque won't drop in round 2 and pavane. Taking away the decision to just move away from your force and blast you with long range stuff is why you get the masque.

I don't play ravenwing, but have been considering this army.

Sammael - 205

ravenwing attack squad (6) w/ two meltaguns, sergeant with power weapon+plasma pistol + meltabombs, attack bike w/ multimelta, and landspeeder - 425

ravenwing attack squad (6) w/ two meltaguns, sergeant with power weapon+ plasma pistol + meltabombs, attack bike w/ multimelta, and landspeeder - 425


ravenwing attack squad (6) w/ two meltaguns, sergeant with power weapon+ plasma pistol + meltabombs, attack bike w/ multimelta, and landspeeder - 425

Whirlwind + Sbolter-90
Whirlwind-+ Sbolter -90
Whirlwind-+ Sbolter -90

1750 on the dot, 12 scoring units, use the whirlwinds for massed troops, and the attacks squads for vehicles, or elite troops. the storm bolters were to use up leftover points, I don't expect them ever to be used. this army is designed to go on the offensive, not to defend.

the big problem with this list is low model count. 12 scoring units, but only 22 models in the whole army. start taking hits and it will be in trouble.

Thats the great thing about bikes though. 24" move and a three plus inv save when turbo charged lets you pcik your targets and pretty much flyl the like the wind and strike like a falcon. It takes some finesse but when done properly its absolutely wicked. (ie its one of the few lists I have seen knock out tri monoliths)

Ugh. Dark Angels aren't really that competitive. They can be made that way by generalship, but their list selection is poor and their flexibility is relatively low.

Termies, Bikes, or Marines are about all you can do really.

I'd say the first two or a combo thereof get you your best 'army'. Marines...are marines.

please no death raven.... I hate those things. The squads just arn't big enough to soak up the casualties of first turn shooting. Much better to run full ravenwing.

So the general consensus of Dark Angels is that if I dont run Ravenwing by itself, or Deathwing by itself, Im SOL? lol
What about that list they ran in the Daemon Vs. Dark Angel battle report? that had some potential, didnt it? DIDNT IT?? lol I just want to get a lot of varying ideas for a DA approach, but so far it's really not making me feel better....

Anyways, what about Death Guard?

I definitely understand about the Masque now. She's not bad, but there are better choices for heralds.

Well pretty much any list with a decent core will work. Its just that if you play dark angels strictly to win then Raven wingis probably your best bet. Though their mechlists aren't bad with such a cheap rhino though you pay for it in other areas. (like options)

It seems to me the lack of "options" in the DA list is kinda overblown. Sure they lose some things, but they gain a few others.

What they gain that no one else has is characters, the termie DW assault and the splittable RW bikes. If you are not going to use these, then run your DA as a generic chapter. If you are going to use these, there are some pretty good tactics. I think the combined RW/DW force is better than either alone.

The plague marines will certainly still be a force to be reckoned with. The new codex does reward combined legions, but if any power works alone, it's Nurgle.

True but apparently the new space marine codex will take even that away from us. That said they are probably one of the best fluffy armies out there. Them and Blood Angels.

At 1750 you can run a 'comedy option' Deathwing list. Its effectiveness is entirely dependent upon if Land Raiders are actually made cool in 5th.

HQ: (305)

Belial (130): 2x Lightning Claws (0), Company Banner (25) = 155 points

Librarian (120): Terminator Armor (30)= 150 points

TROOPS: (645)

Deathwing Terminator Squad (215): 4x LC 1x Thunder Hammer = 215 points

Deathwing Terminator Squad (215): 4x LC 1x Thunder Hammer = 215 points

Deathwing Terminator Squad (215): 4x LC 1x Thunder Hammer = 215 points


HEAVY SUPPORT: (800)

Land Raider (250) w/Extra Armor (15) = 265

Land Raider (250) w/Extra Armor (15) = 265

Land Raider Crusader (250) w/Extra Armor (15), Storm Bolter (5) = 270

I wouldn't bring it to a tournament, but it might be amusing to tool around with 3 Raiders full of Deathwing.