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About a week ago I had a game with a guy who plays Space Marines. He took a squad with bikes who promptly got very close to my devilfish and hammerhead. I tried to use a tactic that I had heard about but first let me explain the setup. His bikes were in a thin stretch of land between a building and the edge of the table while i placed one of my skimmers behind him to block retreat I tankshocked him with my hammerhead. A third guy who was there said that you can't force Space Marines off the board and that they would stop the tank before it overcame them. He's been playing for a lot longer than I have so rather than argue we went ahead with what he said.

I later on looked through the rules and I can't find anything that supports what he said. Can anyone help me out here? Can Space Marines be forced off the board with a tank shock if all other directions are blocked off?

Absolutely. You got robbed, my friend.

Space Marines all have ATSKNF, which means they automatically regroup, as long as there are no enemies within 6", and that they cannot be wiped out via Sweeping Advance. It provides no benefit from running off the edge, and even allows you to 'escort' SMs off the board by staying within 6" of them.

MinMax wrote:Space Marines all have ATSKNF, which means they automatically regroup,

Assuming that they fell back in the first place...

If they didn't fail their Ld test, they don't fall back, they just move out of the way.

Whether or not Tank Shocked models can be forced off the board has been the subject of numerous online arguments, with no real clear resolution. Some say that it's acceptable, some say that you can't move off the board edge unless you're falling back.

It's one of those things that you need to sort out with your opponent.

The fact that he has been playing much longer than you has counted against him here, he is stuck in third edition. In third edition Space Marines could not be forced off the table because units were allowed to attempt to rally at the table edge and Space Marines always pass. In Fourth Edition that rule is gone so Space Marines can make an exit in such a manner.

You need to provide some additional information. Specificaly, did the marines pass their leadership test for the tank shock?

If they failed their leadership test for the tank shock, then they fall back. Since their initial fall back move would almost certainly cause them to retreate off the board, they would do so. This would effectively remove them from the game.

On the other hand, if they passed their leadership test, they would move out from underneath the tank by the shortest route possible. Here is where the sticky rules come in. What happens when the shortest route is off the board? I would argue that moving off the board in such a maner is not possible since the only rules that allow you to move off the board are the fall back rules and the deep strike rules. However, what you would do instead is up in the air if all other routes are blocked off.

insaniak wrote:
If they didn't fail their Ld test, they don't fall back, they just move out of the way.

To be more precise they move out of the way using the shortest possible path.

_______________________________________________________________ (table edge)
---------\
vehicle|
---------/

Imagine the vehicle moving from left to right, for the tank shocked models the shortest path is off the board, regardless of whether they fail the test.
And remember they also have to obey the 1" rule with respect to the vehicle tank shocking them.

nostromo wrote:To be more precise they move out of the way using the shortest possible path.

Very true, but the heart of the debate is weather or not off the board is a "possible path". If you replaced the board edge in your diagram with impassable terrain, then the marines would just move to the left or right since moving up (into the impassable terrain) would not be a possible move. See what I'm saying? In addition, the only refrences I can find to moving off the board are in the fall back rules and the deep strike rules. In both cases, if your models are forced to move off the board, they are effectively destroyed. However, there are no other refrences to moving off the board that I can find (if you know of others, please point them out) so unless you are in one of those two situations, there are no rules for moving off the board and it is thus not allowed.

And the rules do ( or at least used to) state the the board edge is to be treated as impossible terrain for movement. Which means the marine would stay on the board and move the other way or pop out behind the tank.

Ok, let me try to lay this out...

...............------------\...|
...............|VEHICLE|..|
________ ------------/...|
..............|.................|
..............| .......|
..............| .......|OFF BOARD
BUILDING.|../------\......|
..............|..|...^..|.....|
..............|..|...|...|.....|
..............|..|...|...|.....|
________|..|...|...|.....|

Ok, if you can make it throught this horrible diagram what it's trying to represent is my two vehicles and the SM's. On one side of his SM's is the edge of the board and on the other is a building (impassable). I blocked the northern area with my devilfish and tank shocked with my hammerhead. There was no space on either side of the hammerhead for hiom to retreat (do to the 1" rule) but that is where the third guy, the one who'd been playing for awhile, stepped in and told me that the marines can't be forced off of the board. Since he called the move invalid I reset and no leadership role was made.

Regardless of what strange setup you have, if you can move your tank in such a way that at least one of the marines can be touched, he has to take a leadership test for tank shock. If he fails, he falls back. If he passes, he has the option of death or glory and assuming he doesn't take it, he moves the shortest distance possible (the key word is possible) to get his marines out from under the tank. There are no rules covering what happens if normal movement will not allow the marines to move out from under the tank. I am assuming that your diagram has the marines completely surrounded: on one side by another vehicle, one side by the board edge, and on 2 sides by an impassible building.

In the absence of rules clearly pertaining to the situation, I would suggest that they take the shortest route possible to someplace they are allowed to be, even if this would have them moving though something they normally wouldn't be allowed to move though (like your other vehicle).

Strimen wrote:And the rules do ( or at least used to) state the the board edge is to be treated as impossible terrain for movement.

Nope, no such rule in 4th edition.

There are simply no rules that specifically allow you to voluntarily move off the board edge.

Phoenix wrote: he moves the shortest distance possible (the key word is possible) to get his marines out from under the tank.

That's the key part there. Some read the Tank Shock rule to mean that any models that would wind up underneath the tank at any point in its movement must be moved out of its path, and assume that the tank's line of travel is invalid as movement space. Which leaves the option of running the models off the board, or stopping the tank before it runs over them.

The version that I personally think fits the rules as written (if no making quite as much sense in real world terms) is that the only models that have to move are those that would wind up underneath the tank's final position... and they are simply moved out from under the tank by the shortest route possible, so placing them behind the tank becomes perfectly legal. That removes any conflict with the rules... there's no need to try to move off the board, and the tank shock is not stopped by a model who is magically immune to being run over by virtue of not having room to get out of the way...

Having said that, being able to dodge out of the way of an oncoming vehicle by sliding underneath it and standing back up behind it seems a little extreme to me... so in a friendly game, I'd be more inclined to simply suggest that they run off the board, as it seems the most sensible option.