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Am I reading this correctly?

It appears for 5th edition, that Independant characters DO NOT count as such if they're accompanied by the retinue or 'bodyguard' units that are frequently availiable in their army list entry. A passage in the 5th edition rules, pg 48 in fact, states that when they're with their retinues, IC's simply count as an 'upgrade' character like a vet sarge.

Perhaps I'm behind the times but I havent seen anyone discuss the implications of this yet. Basically retinues will prevent valuable characters from getting "fisted" or targetted solely in close combat. A VERY big deal indeed....and a VERY significant rules change.

It is a big deal, but the number of characters who can actually take retinues is rapidly dwindling with each new codex that is released.

The Space Marine codex will pretty quickly get rid of that rule for all SM armies except for Space Wolves.


That leaves Tau, IG, WH, DH and Dark Eldar with that rule in play.


And it really doesn't affect the game nearly as much as it would have in 4th edition because the character is still going to have wounds allocated to him separately (although the player can and will choose to not place deadly wounds onto him), and with the way combat works it is going to be decided one way or the other pretty quickly anyway.

So really, having a character fight as part of the unit in 5th edition will have really little impact.

Tau are irrelevant. They don't have anything but GimpWithDemonSwordAndCrapList...you wanna run a uber 900 point unit with 1 S5 power weapon...yay me!

IG...well, last chancers can be a horse kick to the face, but most everything else the IG have is craptastic.

WH (Canoness + Celestians) are not.

Dark Eldar + Incubi sure as hell are not.

DH GKH + Terminator bodyguard is nasty.

Space marines will have crazy HQ's, if you really want to, for most of this GT season if not all of it.

SW characters with WG bodyguards are utter nonsense units. Toss in stormcaller and OH BOY.

Doesn't affect the game much...interesting viewpoint.

I disagree.

Lelith + 20 Wyches come out of the portal.
GKH + 7 Termies come out of a LRC.
SWH + 7 WG come out of a LRC.
Full SM command + all 3 mini heros comes out of a LRC.

Wait, wait...I sense a theme here.

500 point death unit riding in a vehicle that's MUCH harder to kill...

Players have been waiting for FIVE years for this sick combo to work...think they won't take advantage??

Little impact? Really?

You're certainly right that characters with such units will be nearly impossible to kill without wiping out the unit around them.

And you're also right that the new SM codex won't be in play for much, if not all of this year's GTs which will definitely be where this rule is most utilized (simply by sheer number of marine players).


However, I still don't see it having major game impact. Those units you describe would already kick the crap out of most other units in CC.

The only thing that is actually different about the units is that it is much harder to 'snipe' these characters in CC with an opposing IC.

But an opposing IC can still only be attacked by models that are engaged with him so as an opposing player if your opponent is fielding one of these types of squads you have to make sure not to leave your IC in the front of the unit. That way when they charge your unit and your IC makes his counter-charge move you make sure to have him go up against the bodyguard models instead of against the 'hidden' characters.


But my point is, that if you're running a squad or squads that can deal with the bodyguard/character unit then the way combat is set up now you're still going to end up killing or breaking that unit anyway.

And if the bodyguard/character unit is the better CC unit, then *it* is going to win/wipe out the combat and then you better have stuff to gun it down or counter-assault it, just like any other potent enemy CC unit in the game.


So yeah, those units are nasty and uber in CC and the characters in them are most definitely harder to kill without wiping out the entire unit, but I contend that whichever side gets the better CC unit(s) into combat at the right time is still going to win the combat, regardless of whether the characters can be 'picked out' or not.

I just think it makes for a unit that can have a character without a bunch of protective upgrades--saving points for use elsewhere.

I mean it makes for quite a different game.

Take this comparison for example:

Current Marine assault unit:


9 Assault Squad @ 270 Pts
Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x9), Melta Bombs (x9)
1 Sergeant @ [52] Pts
Jump Packs; Frag Grenades (squad); Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors, Melta Bombs

1 Master of Sanctity @ 166 Pts
Frag Grenades; Melta Bombs; Crozius Arcanum; Power Fist (x1); Rosarius
1 Jump Pack @ [20] Pts
1 Rosarius @ [0] Pts
1 Terminator Honors @ [15] Pts

Total cost: 416 points. Your chaplain gets picked out, so you have to buy the mantle otherwise he gets a fist to the face and he's gone. Anti-tank is CC only.

Or, you could do this:

1 Land Raider Crusader @ 268 Pts
Multi-Melta; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Hurricane Bolters (x2); Extra Armor; Power of the Machine Spirit; Smoke Launchers

1 Reclusiarch @ 295 Pts
Crozius Arcanum; Power Fist (x1); Rosarius; Command Squad
1 Rosarius @ [0] Pts
1 Terminator Honors @ [15] Pts
9 Command Squad @ [170] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x7); Meltagun (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

Total cost: 563 points.

Granted you can't split off anymore, but in 5th you never want to split off your chaplain anymore. He'll usually get punked if you do.

So this unit can deliver anti-tank with the meltaguns, it's in a LRC so odds are it's going to get delivered instead of getting shot dead as the other unit will, and the chaplain can be a 2 wounder without a mantle because he'll never get killed till everyone is dead.

I'd rather have 15 point bodybags and a LRC for +150 points...without meltaguns, LR in 5th just don't die to much.

Would I do this in 5th? Probably not, it's not my playstyle.

I think it is a viable alternative to a terminator squad, in that all of your points aren't in ONE unit. You can run two of these and let the chaplain go nuts with his first turn charge. It's not like you can get away from his hits, after all. 5 of them with re-rolls wounding on 2+ is nasty, and all the other hits from the marines aren't anything to sneeze at.

Alot more than you'll get from a assault marine unit in 5th that can't hide, that's for sure. (Ok, you can hide them behind vehicles...but if it isn't a LR people are going to kill those vehicles to get at your assault marines).

Now if you minimize the squad, and just run a bunch of min sized squads (like marines usually do) if the other guy wants to come play he still has a 7 wound chaplain to deal with when he gets to your side of the world.

I know MC absolutely hate bodyguards in 5E, cause they kill 15 point models and get fisted to death.

SW characters with WG bodyguards are utter nonsense units.

This line only becomes even more true with the abbreviation identifier on mouse over thing.

Oh, you didn't know that SM can take retinues of Wraithguards now?

SPAZE MARINEZ HURR!!

Joking ofc.

Yeah WG are Wolf Guard. lol

My brother has a DH army with lots of gray knights. I think this could really change things for his army, as his IC's are forever getting killed.

Anybody have thoughts on how he should take advantage of this without a LRC? (he doesn't have one). Can the DH/IG be a good infantry only force with this new rule?

I think one of the sickest command squads will be High Marshal Helbrects command squad. That is one sick command squad. 15 models! A standard that adds +1 to combat rez, etc. Option for furious charge, or counter assault. I can't wait to finish painting him up.

Capt K

I also see IG suicide JO command squads as being somewhat useful again. Or Hardened vets with a sgt with fist.

Capt K

So retinues are a thing of the past come the new Space Marine Codex?

After all the hullabaloo made about them in the 4th edition codex?

Huh.

Alpharius wrote:So retinues are a thing of the past come the new Space Marine Codex?

After all the hullabaloo made about them in the 4th edition codex?

Huh.

Don't ya know, it's time to sell ONE metal fig for 20$ instead of the master box set (they already got the suckers on that one, and now all the new special characters are coming out...higher profit ratio since everyone and their mother is going to want the special character so they can run non-ultrasmurf armies).



Oops sorry. Bit of a rant there. lol

Wouldn't this rule make HQ Characters with Powerfists viable? This rule, on top of kill zone removal, let's that HQ with a fist still swing and kill things at initiative 1.

Also does any unit the character joins become his retinue? In WD 342 they describe Abaddon deep striking with his 'retinue' of terminators. This is just an Elite choice he joined before deep striking in.

Alpharius wrote:So retinues are a thing of the past come the new Space Marine Codex?

After all the hullabaloo made about them in the 4th edition codex?

Huh.

Eldar = no retinues. Dark Angels = no retinues. Blood Angels = no retinues. Orks = no retinues. CSMs = no retinues. Daemons = no retinues.

I think the pattern dictates that the new SM codex will not include any retinues.

DarthDiggler wrote:Wouldn't this rule make HQ Characters with Powerfists viable? This rule, on top of kill zone removal, let's that HQ with a fist still swing and kill things at initiative 1.

Also does any unit the character joins become his retinue? In WD 342 they describe Abaddon deep striking with his 'retinue' of terminators. This is just an Elite choice he joined before deep striking in.

Uh, in v5 if a model is engaged at the start of the combat he still gets to swing, so ICs with powerfists will still get their kills as long as there are any models left alive in the unit they were engaged with at the start of the combat.

And the only time a retinue counts as "a retinue" is when they are part of a unit they cannot leave for the whole game.

The latter half of what yak just said is a very important difference between 4E and 5E.

Alot of players will be surprised.

If you think 'fantasy', you won't be as surprised.

See, each space marine steps forward to get his brothers geneseed and is mercilessly cut down by said power klaw.

yakface wrote:

Alpharius wrote:So retinues are a thing of the past come the new Space Marine Codex?

After all the hullabaloo made about them in the 4th edition codex?

Huh.

Eldar = no retinues. Dark Angels = no retinues. Blood Angels = no retinues. Orks = no retinues. CSMs = no retinues. Daemons = no retinues.

I think the pattern dictates that the new SM codex will not include any retinues.

DarthDiggler wrote:Wouldn't this rule make HQ Characters with Powerfists viable? This rule, on top of kill zone removal, let's that HQ with a fist still swing and kill things at initiative 1.

Also does any unit the character joins become his retinue? In WD 342 they describe Abaddon deep striking with his 'retinue' of terminators. This is just an Elite choice he joined before deep striking in.

Uh, in v5 if a model is engaged at the start of the combat he still gets to swing, so ICs with powerfists will still get their kills as long as there are any models left alive in the unit they were engaged with at the start of the combat.

And the only time a retinue counts as "a retinue" is when they are part of a unit they cannot leave for the whole game.

Well, OK.

BUT, couldn't they leave the retinue rule in for SM's? And maybe DE too?

Probably not, but, you know that SM's love them some special rules! (Of course this one would be a bit over the top, potentially, even for them!)

yakface wrote:


Eldar = no retinues. Dark Angels = no retinues. Blood Angels = no retinues. Orks = no retinues. CSMs = no retinues. Daemons = no retinues.

I think the pattern dictates that the new SM codex will not include any retinues.

Sure about DA/BA?

Codex DA page 81: HQ command squad 5 marines in power armor (no termies).
WD BA list: HQ command squad 5 marines (can buy jumppack).

Thats not retinues? hm....

Retinue = the IC cannot leave the squad.

"Command unit" = IC can leave the squad.

Stelek wrote:Retinue = the IC cannot leave the squad.

"Command unit" = IC can leave the squad.

A techmarine and servitors or grimaldus with cenobites count as retinue?


A BT IC (Castellan/chaplain) that chooses a HQ-squad cannot leave until hes the last survivor.
Makes him a IC with retinue?

The techmarine...hmmm, probably yes.

The BT use the old style retinue of the SM Codex, so I'd think yes on them too.

I believe that it can and will change things. This is why I started taking knights. It was because my characters with fists would always be targeted then raped. It was the same price after upgrading my commands to just get some termies.

I think the broodlord benefits quite a bit and his retinue won't lose possible kills due to his I7 either. With tyranid 5ed codex likely no earlier then 2010, I think we'll see him in more games and more often then before (especially since he is the only synapse creature that can flank and the only one that can take feeder tendrils).

Broodlord FT +retinue with acid maw = reroll to hit and to wound. nice nice. run shrug? lol