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Pre-amble:
After 5th edition comes out (I sadly have no access to an early copy of the rulebook, but have gleamed much from dakka these past few days), I will probably start collecting a new army. Toss up between Space Marines and IG at this point, but leaning towards Marines.


I've always liked the dreadnought models, and even bought one just to build, but if I'm starting a SM army, I definitely want two or three in there.

Question is, are CC dreadnoughts more/less viable in 5th ed or around the same? And are they attacked on rear armour in CC now as well?

Thanks!

Dreadnoughts are sadly lacking in survivability in 4th ed. 5th ed makes them a little tougher (but not really enough to make them significantly better), and gives them the option to Run, though I'd prefer shoot the heavy weapon rather than get a few extra inches of movement.

In CC, attacks will be made against their front armour because they have a WS value. Only vehicles that have no WS characteristic get attacked on their rear armour, AFAIK.

playing cc, 5e makes dreads more worth consideration.
I can't use them, but they are a worthy opponent. rend = +3str at best. and 1/3 as often (?) VenDreds should hold lines other troops may have issues with.

I have played few 5e games atm, but dreads have worked well vs me.



shrug

Well, a str 10 unit isn't something you ignore... they do well once they get in CC, but it's keeping them alive until they can reach CC that's the issue. I suppose that's why I choose to give Chaos Dreads CC weapons, since they can fleet with a bloodrage roll.

Well, with the plastic drop on the way, a couple of dreadnoughts getting tossed into the rear of a gunline could definitely cause some trouble. Especially, if they're Blood Angel Furioso Death Company Dreadnoughts. Nothing says I love you like 3 strength 10 attacks base, with +1 for the charge and +D3 because you're just that mean.

stick them in drop pods, drop them in, and all of a sudden your opponent has a problem.

Pros:
1) New damage chart makes destroying them more difficult
2) Power fist nerf means that if they get to where they are going (hand to hand) they are less likely to die in combat
3) The run rule makes them more mobile

Cons:
1) They are still vulnerable to las cannon fire and other assorted long range anti tank fire power.
2) Melta guns and other short range anti tank weapons are getting more popular and you’re going to be in range for them.
3) There are still lots of opponents (cc carnifexes, eldar avatar, witch blade carrying seers, space wolves with lots of power fists, etc.) that will carve you up in hand to hand.
4) You can’t assault on a turn you run
5) You can’t assault on a turn you deep strike.

So in general, they are better than they were in 4th, but I’m not convinced they are a good idea.

Marine dreads Cons (especially as outlined by Phoenix) far outweigh the Pros.

They've also had rather poor survivability odds in most battles.

Now if they only had a high T and 3 Wounds, like a certain other Dread. At least they'd stick around for a while...

They also got the hidden nerf of the change in break check rules. Instead of winning and outnumbering by a ton they now win by 1 and tarpit a unit forever.
Hard to run someone down with one dread.

In 4th ed., I'd tuck them away in some rubble or a building to gain the "hull down" benefit and just use them as a fire base. If anything got to close, I'd charge with it and go "smash, smash" with the strength 10 attacks

I plan to use some Dreads in my mixed SM list that I will make with the new starter box, but I will configure them to a 'Hellfire' setup; i.e. pure ranged power.

themandudeperson wrote:In 4th ed., I'd tuck them away in some rubble or a building to gain the "hull down" benefit and just use them as a fire base. If anything got to close, I'd charge with it and go "smash, smash" with the strength 10 attacks

The original poster was discussing the virtues (or lack there of) of hand to hand based dreadnaughts rather than the long ranged varients. While I'm not a fan of the close combat versions, the las cannon / missile launcher dreadnaught is rather good. Keep it in cover and it becomes very difficult to kill while providing a decent amount of anti tank fire power.

I'm wondering if the hellfire dread is worth it over the cc dread. That would free up my planned predators back to their anti-infantry configuration...

</tangent>

Are drop-pods mandatory for CC dreads? I've seen them used against me to somewhat successful degrees...(my broadside always seems to just turn around and shoot it in the face), but I'm just not getting a drop-pod vibe from my planned army

orchewer wrote:I'm wondering if the hellfire dread is worth it over the cc dread.

In my experience, the hellfire is always better than the close combat dread, but I also haven't played 5th yet so that may change things a little (though I doubt it)

Are drop-pods mandatory for CC dreads? I've seen them used against me to somewhat successful degrees...(my broadside always seems to just turn around and shoot it in the face), but I'm just not getting a drop-pod vibe from my planned army

In general, if you drop down next to the enemy, you just get shot in the face. Melta guns (and their ilk) are becomming more and more popular so you can almost bet that one will be around to vaporize your dread before it gets the chance to do anything. If not, some other type of anti tank is going to get you. So unless you have an all pod army or you think you can effectively hide behind your pod for a turn once you hit the ground, then walking will probably be the better choice.

Pure CC dreads isnt that hot, never was never will be. Since they only get 1 extra attack over the "normal" one. Why give up the ability to cause extra damage on the way in or on the round you drop for only that? Too much lost for so little gain.

Rumor has it that the new Marine codex will have a "Siege Dreadnought" with AV 13 front and at least one DCCW, so the assault Dread may indeed be effective. However, Dreadnoughts are the perfect example of the "Rule of Two", so even with the AV 13 variant you'll probably need two or three if you want them to be truly effective.

even if they were AV13 on the front, if they are similar to the FW seige dreds i'd prefer them to have an inferno cannon. S6 24" template weapon that ignores cover is too good to give up in 5th. i dont think CC dreds are anygood in 5th. Hellfire dreds in cover as static fire platforms are better.

Using something with AV12 front armour wont do much good as a fireplatform, even if in cover. Their survival rates is about the same as a snowball in hell.

true, but its still better then runnig them at the enemy and hoping they get into combat that cant hurt them for the rest of the game.

"Using something with AV12 front armour wont do much good as a fireplatform, even if in cover. Their survival rates is about the same as a snowball in hell"

In 4th edition, sure, a lascannon hit had a 1/2 chance to penetrate, and then a 1/2 chance to destroy, so 4 lascannons later your dread was toast. I'm ignoring glances as they fall out in 5th edition, but they can also kill the dread in 4th.

In 5th edition though, that same lascannon hit has a 1/2 chance of being negated by your cover, and glances can't kill it. So when penning to death, you need 2 shots to get a hit, 4 shots to get it past the cover save, then you only kill on a 5/6 instead of 4/5/6. Thus, you need 12 lascannon shots, the dread is roughly 3 times (actually a bit more, due to glancing no longer being lethal) as survivable as it previously was.

Nicely calqulated but not quite, you are at 3 for glancing hits and 4+ for penetrating. Weapon destroyed is almost as bad as destroyed and definently is when #2 hits it.

Even a lowly shaken is enough to stop your thing from working at all, and that will happen every round if your not destroyed or weaponless.