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I've been through the book a couple of times and it looks like close combat armies will be particularly brutal in 5th edition. I'm starting to get the feeling that there will be tactics employed where a player ignores the objectives and focuses on simply wiping out his opponent. This would be akin to rhino-rushing blood angels or iron warriors from 3rd edition. If you don't focus on capturing objectives with troops, and therefore min your troops choices, instead focusing on hard hitting, fast units and taking out your opponents entire army you should win, no?

A chaos army I've been playing with is as follows to illustrate this:

Slannesh DP w/ wings and lash
Slannesh DP w/ wings and lash
4 terminators w/ combi plasma, icon and 2 fists
4 terminators w/ combi plasma, icon and 2 fists
7 CSM w/ Rhino, melta gun, champion, fist and icon
7 CSM w/ Rhino, melta gun, champion, fist and icon
8 Khorne raptors w/ 2 melta guns, icon, champion with with fist
8 Khorne raptors w/ 2 melta guns, icon, champion with with fist
2 obliterators
2 defiliers with CC arms

Let me know if you think this will be effective in 5th, I know it is in 4th. Only army it has a problem with is super fast eldar, which will hopefully be slowed down or less popular.

Cogito

It is good and well thought out but what about hord armies? like orks that relish assault and have the numbers. on turn one can deep strike down the other end or launch a waaagh. i like the list tho, well done

Wiping out your opponent, while an admirable goal, isn't something I would base an army on. You need to keep in mind that if they have 1 model from a troop choice on an objective and you don't have anything around to contest it, they win. Now, on the other hand, if you wipe out all their troop choices, then the game is a draw if they have 1 model of any kind on the board. Add in the fact that once you win a round of hand to hand combat, you can't consolidate into another unit and you could be in trouble. In all my years of playing, I've never had all my models removed from the table, and I've only managed to do it to my opponents a hand full of times.

Just some things to think about.

Why not trade out those CSM's for Berserkers or noise marines? Either will probably only cost you one body, while giving you fearless and advantages dependent on which one you choose. You lose the melta gun, but you can take the weapon upgrades of the cult units to compensate.

If you could find points for a naked 5 marine squad you would have something to sit on an objective just in case you didn't annihilate you opponant down to his every last cell.

For CSM I want to run them all in squads of 20, try wiping that out you pesky ork horde!!!

for your squad of 20 CSM you will be facing 50 ork boyz. CSM horde armies dont work. theyre too expensive and still die to cheaper hordes.

but thats not the issue. the problem with the annihilation stratergy is that if i only have 1 model left on the table you cant win. the most efficient way of wipping out large units of infantry is to run them off the table. unfortunately, with the advent of fearless or psudo-fearless infantry (SM, orks, nids) everywhere that is not an easy task. its very unlikely that an army will be able to put out enough fire to completely wipeout a horde army before it is starts taking significant losses, and once that happens the likelyhood of your army with almost no scoring units winning goes downhill very quickly.

thats not to say its impossible though. i can see some DE and ork lists being able to do it without too much trouble buy everything else is going to have a tough time of it.

The real killer is that without consolidate, the power of a mega killy assault unit is just no where near what it used to be.

Ok, you wiped out my guard squad, darn! Now eat three pieplates and some plasma for desert.

Just does not have the ability to crush an enemy army like it used to even if its easier now to kill a unit.

The real killer is that without consolidate, the power of a mega killy assault unit is just no where near what it used to be.

I agree. You can't really expect the 'eggs in one basket' units to eat whole armies on their own anymore. You'll need to have a coordinated assault to have much of a chance. Tie up or kill as much as you can all at once inorder to lessen the effect of the counter attack.

for your squad of 20 CSM you will be facing 50 ork boyz. CSM horde armies dont work. theyre too expensive and still die to cheaper hordes

Don't be too sure in 5ed. The new combat res does a number on orks who can no longer rely on out lasting a superior assault unit. Not saying 20 CSM is better then 50 orks, just noting that 5ed closes the gap a bit via combat res and no retreat rule.

yeah a squad of 20 CSM's plowing into 30 orks
kills 6 from shooting then 13 in cc orks kill 2 the orks then the orks run away and get cut down you have 18 space marines ready to take the charge from 20 orcs.

20 orcs fire then charge

1 dead csm from shootin

7 dead orcs

4 dead marines
orcs lose this combat as well and take 3 more wounds

so 20 csm do pretty well against 50 orcs. sure if the fifty orcs get the charge your screwed, but that's what the lash is for.

skkipper, the orks don't run (Mob rules).

Janthkin wrote:skkipper, the orks don't run (Mob rules).

umm start with 30 -19 ish that leaves them with them with 11. at a -11 leadership mod they will run most likely

It will be effective... against people who haven't played much 5th edition. after about a month of hardcore play testing I can tell you that against good players this army won't win. They will kill your troops and hold the objectives for the win. In a KP game, they will wipe out your small units and pop your princes and vehicles

skkipper wrote:

Janthkin wrote:skkipper, the orks don't run (Mob rules).

umm start with 30 -19 ish that leaves them with them with 11. at a -11 leadership mod they will run most likely

No, they won't.

Orks in a mob of more than 10 models are (effectively) Fearless.

This is all irrelevant. If the mission is objective based, and you wipe out your opponent, you still dont win with no controlled objectives...period. Sorry to rain on your parade man.....

page 90
wipeout!!
regardless of victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your opponent has no units left. you win the game

kills 6 from shooting then 13 in cc orks kill 2 the orks then the orks run away and get cut down you have 18 space marines ready to take the charge from 20 orcs.

As stated they are fearless so don't run. They would however take 11 armors saves due to no retreat. At a 6+ save that is about 9 more casualties.

The trick here will be getting the charge off before the orks (Waagh makes that pretty difficult without Lash). Orks getting the charge against the CSm will likely win combat. Also worth noting the CSm squad is bound to be much more expensive then a typical 30 man mob.

skkipper wrote:page 90
wipeout!!
regardless of victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your opponent has no units left. you win the game

It would be wrong if you lost for wiping out all the enemy, but the problem is that you may not be able to kill every single model and if you spend all reasources on that the enemy may be holding just one objective and win