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Well a buddy of mine is entering a tournament that is supposed to be for friendly gamers.... a.k.a., "I'm not invited".

He presented me with a challenge that I've never faced before.... come up with a power house list that's disguised as "friendly" for the empire.

How does this list look, and how effective do you think it would be against other "friendly" lists?

Wizard Lord-265
-Magic Level 4, Doomfire Ring, Dispel Scroll

Ludwig-220
-Sword of Justice, The Emporer’s Standard, Full Plate Armor, Battle Standard Bearer, Warhorse, Barding

Battle Wizard-100
-Magic Level 2

Warrior Priest-135
-Hammer of Judgement, Heavy Armor, Shield, Warhorse, Barding

24 Swordsmen-213
-Standard, Musician
Detachment
9 Swordsmen

24 Swordsmen-213
-Standard, Musician
Detachment
9 Swordsmen

25 Swordsmen-219
-Standard, Musician
Detachment
9 Swordsmen

5 Knights-155
-Full Command

5 Knights-155
-Full Command

Cannon-100

Cannon-100

Mortar-75

Mortar-75

Hellstrom Rocket Battery-115

Hellblaster-110

I figured to make it friendly, no character type would be the same, and the rares couldn't be duplicated.

Hey Angron,

Some quick thoughts. Can Ludwig's "Bodyguard" ability be used by anyone, or only with the Emperor? If it can be used with any Empire General-type character, it might be worthwhile to keep him kinda near your Wizard-Lord. Anyway, he doesn't seem to fit really... the Sword of Justice is on the weak end, and he doesn't really add much more umph than a normal Empire Captain. You might be able to save some points, and get a mounted Empire Captain BSB. That'll also let you get a magic banner. With your small-sized hammer units, the War Banner would be a great boost to their minimalist charge.

It's been my finding that four artillery pieces are usually considered "not fun"... (Especially since you'll have six in total). I'd either keep a pair of cannon, or the pair of mortars. With the points you save, get a unit of Pistoliers. They're pretty Empire, and usually no one really gets upset with just one unit of them.

The Helstrom Rocket Battery is more frustrating than fun... for both sides. I'd recommend dropping it, and getting like a Galloper Gun (if your group allows DOW), or maybe some Kislevite Gryphon Guard... the Gryphon Guard aren't usually assumed with overpowerd, and more friendly as they are an exotic, not often seen unit. And, a lot of people don't realize that the Gryphon Guard causes panic tests when they charge, have STR 4, and Initiative 4... hidden bonuses.

The Hellblaster Gun is also more frustrating than fun. And, if you're bringing some 6 pieces of artillery, someone will say "Hey... that's not a 'fun' list." You actually might want to drop the Hellblaster for a squad of Archer Huntsmen, or maybe some Lumpin Croop's Fighting Roosters. Bow-armed models are usually not worried about and considered "fun". Huntsmen are highly effective with Scout, and Lumpin's Boys are ridiculusly brave for being bowmen.

I've never really been impressed with the Doomfire Ring. A second dispell scroll would probably be better, and still ring of being friendly. Or, you might want to consider Von Tarnus' Armor. It isn't used much so it's considered "weak"... but if your mage is in a line-infantry unit, the armor / ward save comes in mighty handy. Especially if you get some of those melee spells from the Lore of Beasts, Fire, or Light.

I've never really been impressed with the Hammer of Judgement either. You might be able to save some points, and get like a Hammer of Strength (which looks a lot like the Common Magic Item the Sword of Strength)... it's a weak-end-but-effective, cheap, magic item that no one will really bat an eyelash about.

How come no champion's in the swordsmen? If your wizards are in the swordsblocks, the champions will keep your wizards from having to accept challenges themselves.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts.

I agree with LT Craggs, I would use Halberdiers as Detachments myself. I like the Str 4 on the flank.

What does 3 str 4 attacks do? Absolutly nothing. What does 3 T3, 6+ Armor save guys do? +3 CR for the enemy. This is why halberdiers suck, and swordsmen are great. Empire doesn't win combat by killing things, they win combat by having more CR. 3 Ranks, +1 Standard Bearer, +1 Outnumbering, +1 Flank, -3 For the Enemy for a lack of ranks, means you're already 8 CR ahead of the enemy. So, as long as you don't go doing something stupid.... like sending T3 6+ armor save guys into the flanks..... you should be just dandy. If you do something stupid, all the sudden the 5 guys on the enemy's flank attack the halberdiers and cause 3 wounds.... all the sudden that +8 goes to +5..... and should they happen to cause 5 wounds.... say if there's a character on the flank..... then all the sudden you're not negating their ranks anymore.

Long story short; halberdiers suck.

Also, Ludwig has both a magic sword and a magic banner, his banner causing +1 CR to all units within 12"..... which makes for a pretty solid block of infantry when you combine this with detachments.

love the cannons and mortars (mmmm mortars!) but the two helly guns suck eggs, try two units of 12 handgunners w musician, and depending on whether you can scrape up the points marksmen with hochlands, gives you a missile screen for the artillery and picking off that champ can be a great help

anyway good luck

PapaSmurf

Angron wrote:What does 3 str 4 attacks do? Absolutly nothing. What does 3 T3, 6+ Armor save guys do? +3 CR for the enemy. This is why halberdiers suck, and swordsmen are great. Empire doesn't win combat by killing things, they win combat by having more CR. 3 Ranks, +1 Standard Bearer, +1 Outnumbering, +1 Flank, -3 For the Enemy for a lack of ranks, means you're already 8 CR ahead of the enemy. So, as long as you don't go doing something stupid.... like sending T3 6+ armor save guys into the flanks..... you should be just dandy. If you do something stupid, all the sudden the 5 guys on the enemy's flank attack the halberdiers and cause 3 wounds.... all the sudden that +8 goes to +5..... and should they happen to cause 5 wounds.... say if there's a character on the flank..... then all the sudden you're not negating their ranks anymore.

Long story short; halberdiers suck.

Also, Ludwig has both a magic sword and a magic banner, his banner causing +1 CR to all units within 12"..... which makes for a pretty solid block of infantry when you combine this with detachments.

Where are you getting only 3 str4 attacks from? Normally you would have 5 of them, and against other light infantry the str 4 is nice! Just m/o, I have had success with it in the past. Just like you said, just as long as you don't do something stupid... you are alright.

imho, you can clearly see your powergaming roots shining through, you just made the 'best unit' for the cost and copy/pasted untill you ran out of points/slots...no real thought to the army as a whole. I've found that there is no 'best unit', and that most people that play 'friendly' (see also fluffy, themed, competitive) lists are generally better at adapting to the opponents selections/tactics than cookie cutter lists. Perhaps this is because you would approach ever opponent in the exact same way out of necessity. You seem like an intelligent guy, so your phobia of change is kind of suprising. Most (Rather than 'All' for the sake of the eventual flame response) units have a role, and if you arnt able to find/achieve that, then it seems like pilot error rather than metagame malfunction. When you flank charge a unit of Ironguts for instance, that 4+ save of the swordsmen is going to be worthless, whereas the str 4 will get you jsut as much of a save (none) and a better chance to wound. But i would venture a guess that if you looked at the other army lists, you would probably see the one thing that is assumed to be in a friendly game: variety. No one likes it when you overload the magic phase with fliers that cant be touched, or the gunline that you cant make it to, or the combat army that rolls your line turn 2...because there is no flavor to the game, its just one guy doing his thing (excelling in most cases) at the expense of his opponent. Some people get enjoyment out of the game itself, and some people get enjoyment out of winning the game, and for you there are 'Ardboy tournies

Drahzar,

The "3" attacks comes from the idea that detachments tend to be done as a 3x3 block. Small, highly maneuverable, and still able to give you that ever important US 5 to qualify for flank attacks. Hence the use of Swordsmen (for decent durability), or Free Companies (cheap and a lot of attacks... everything counts in large numbers.)

Kiwidru,

Not sure who you're directing you comments at... but most of the reviews tend to focus on meta-game aspects more than "how do I crush one army". Because of that, units that tend to be consistantly effective or pointed well for their bonuses are what tend to be recommended. To use a 40K example, everyone takes Las/Plas combo as you are most likely to encounter MEQs... and even when you don't, you can always find targets for Las/Plas.

And, even if you flank Ironguts, who cares about the value of 4+ save. You don't flank them to get a save... you flank them to cause an Instant Panic Test, generate +1 CR (Flanking), and maybe get a few, extra attacks. Actually, the whole purpose of detachments is really to generate the +1 CR for flanking... any wound it causes is an extra bonus.

Craggs, i was commenting on angron's list, and agreeing with/supporting your position. Ill admit im not to savvy with forums as people tend to ask for advice, get offended, and then disregard it to do their original idea anyway.

I like your las/plas example, i think it illustrates that most people use the 'best' builds, but the people that win tournaments/play friendly games almost always have balanced, varied lists, because you never know when you are going to hit that orc/nid army or squads of light/opentopped vehicles and really need some heavy bolters/flamers. Or in a worst case scenario when faced with MEQ's, Flame a squad of 10 marines, wound 5 (4+) kills 1-2 (3+ save) same as a plasma, no risk of killing self. I love logic and probability, but at the end of the day weapons are tools, and it will always be best to use to correct tool for the job at hand, rather than trying to nail something with a sledgehammer jsut because it can do more damage than a clawhammer.

Also, my comment regarding the Ironguts was a hypothetical situation when your suggestion of Halberds would be more benifitial than the swordsmen.

When you flank charge a unit of Ironguts for instance, that 4+ save of the swordsmen is going to be worthless, whereas the str 4 will get you jsut as much of a save (none) and a better chance to wound.

And, even if you flank Ironguts, who cares about the value of 4+ save. You don't flank them to get a save... you flank them to cause an Instant Panic Test, generate +1 CR (Flanking), and maybe get a few, extra attacks. Actually, the whole purpose of detachments is really to generate the +1 CR for flanking... any wound it causes is an extra bonus.

Both of these seem to say the same thing to me: both the swordsman detachment and the halberds would get the same 'stock' bonuses for flanking, but the halberds would give the greatest chance of that 'extra bonus'. Im pretty certain we are in agreement here, but it seems you are trying to conflict with my statement.

seeing that many artillary peices and swordsmen stacked together leaves a after taste. i would never consider that a "fun army to play agianst." a tournament chalenge maybe but not a fun play army. cudos for staying at least away from a total gunline army but this still has much to be desired

sorry about this darn comp

Kiwidru,

I think we're coming to the same conclusion; however, I was more trying to illustrate that that swordsmen, both in tournament and otherwise, are just a more swiss-army-knife unit than the Halberdiers. The Halberdiers have a couple of very limited uses, while the swordsmen can be applied everywhere.

You need a str6 or better hit to completely negate a swordsman's armor save in hand-to-hand... you only need a strength 4 to completely negate a Halberdiers. You'll face a lot more saurus or cold ones (both strength 4)... or even Elves with Lances (str 5 on a charge) than strength 6 attacks. And, those things that can have strength 6 tend to get a bit flummoxed by the WS4 of the swordsmen.

Halberdiers are modestly more useful against high toughness / high armor units... however, the swordsmen survive considerably better against everything. Thus, they're more reliable at giving you the +1 CR from flanking, and causing the Flanking panic test. Not only that... if you want Halberdiers, you shouldn't be going half-hearted anyway. Now that Greatswords have zero unit restrictions, get those instead. Better save, better skill, better strength, and stubborn.

The swordsmen are more consistent with hitting things too. They are weaker attacks yes, but the Swordsmen are more reliable about landing their attacks.

Another way to look at it is that you never know what you're going to face... it could be dwarves... Black Knights... Dark Elf corsairs... khemeri chariots... thus the swordsmen are a cheap, effective unit against all but the most dangerous of opponents. While the Halberdiers have to used against a very small set of units. Swordsmen can be applied everywhere and give you consistent results... Halberdiers just don't have that flexability.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts.

I totally agree, and swordsmen will be hitting heros (WS7-8) on a 4+ while halberdiers will be struggling with a 5+. I just feel that Angron is really hamstringing himself by having 3 large blocks and 3 detachments of all one unit, even if he had a detachment of halberds and a detachment of greatswords i think he would get more versitility because he could use those matchups to his greatest advantage. Against most armies replacing all those guys with halberds isnt going to be better, but almost all armies have a high str unit and most people play at least one unit: For the lizardmen, swordsmen vs the saurus, halberds vs the kroxigor.
I think we could agree that Swordsmen are a more versitile as a model/unit, but as an army it is fairly un-versitile when you only have 1 type of infanty when the army list provides 6 (Swords, spears, freecompany, halberds, greatswords, flagellents).

LtCraggs wrote:Drahzar,

The "3" attacks comes from the idea that detachments tend to be done as a 3x3 block. Small, highly maneuverable, and still able to give you that ever important US 5 to qualify for flank attacks. Hence the use of Swordsmen (for decent durability), or Free Companies (cheap and a lot of attacks... everything counts in large numbers.)

I see! I do understand your point with the WS of the swordsman, I do like the odds of hitting on a 3+ on other normal infantry, but I like the odds of wounding on a 3 or 4+ and the -1 to armor save. We just see things differently and that is cool! It is nice to finally chat with people with different views, and not get all pissy when somebody voices another opinion! Looking forwad to more posts on other subjects! I actually got my ass wailed on by the Empire on Friday night while playing my VC. It was a Massacre, I had only 400 some odd points to my g/f 1300 or so points! It started out great, I was in Hand to hand with 2 units in the second turn! I had flanked a unit of 10 knights with 5 Black Knights and made them take off. She always fields a unit of swordsmen, she had a detachment of handgunners with it and she waited for me to march up to her and their wasn't much left of my units due to losing the Vampire on that flank due to the Hochland longrifle! Sorry about going off the subject.

LtCraggs wrote:Halberdiers are modestly more useful against high toughness / high armor units... however, the swordsmen survive considerably better against everything. Thus, they're more reliable at giving you the +1 CR from flanking, and causing the Flanking panic test. Not only that... if you want Halberdiers, you shouldn't be going half-hearted anyway. Now that Greatswords have zero unit restrictions, get those instead. Better save, better skill, better strength, and stubborn.

I'll second the opinions about swordsmen being more usable than halberdiers, but I have to note that flank charge = panic test don't exist anymore in 7th ed (with units in close combat being immune to panic and such).