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So, I have a campaign game coming up. Due to the fact that I lost my last game, my army was massacred and since they're hitting me again, my next battle will be 1200 pts for me, 2000 pts for death guard. What really messed me up last game was the toughness 5 but what was even worse was the feel no pain rule.. so between the higher tougness and 2 armor saves per wound, it just make it really hard to stop them. Plus, we tend to play with a lot of cover, so my ordinance didn't do so well.. he'd still get a 4+ cover save for hiding while he advanced and as soon as he got into assault range it was all over. On top of his high toughness and extra saves, he's also a real good player, and I'm a sucky one

He has an infantry-heavy army, lots of units and usually 2 predators, sometimes a defiler. He'll usually give 2 units rhinos and have the rest just walk.

We'll probably be playing this game as our last 4th edition game, since we'll prolly be playing before the new book is out and we don't know the new rules enough yet anyway.

I have a BFG game to play before this one, if I win I'll get 200 extra pts to add, if he wins he'll have 200 extra so I'd be down 1000 if that happens.

So.... all I need is a draw and I can at least play the next game at full strength. If I lose, I'm out of the campaign. Is it even possible to pull off a draw? what kind of guard army would you build to go up against an army like this?

I can proxy anything so model's don't matter so much. With what I have, I can do 2 platoons w/ 3 squads, and fill up anti tank & fire support squads. I have 2 chimeras, 2 hellhounds, 1 russ, 1 demolisher and 1 basilisk. 2 of my squads are actually stormtroopers, but I was thinking they'd be better off as regular less expensive troops at this point.

You need to negate his fnp at the lowest points cost possible. Inf squads with just missile launchers. Dropping vets with Meltas. Rough Riders are good, as they strike before him and the PW negates FNP. Maybe two SW squads with demo charges (s8, ap1 ftw).

Pop his transports/defiler FIRST. Massed ML fire should do the trick. I'll work up a list later on.

What he said was pretty right and just kill him with your fleet. Take your time in BFG to assure a win or draw.

I had another guy say to use some ogryns to pin units and then have rough riders assault em.. I dunno if I should save every point for regular troops though.

I was thinking what if I did maybe 2 basilisks win indirect fire, and the rest be all troops. I could maybe do a HW platoon too then.

For setup I'd start with the basilisks in the back corner of the board as far back as they can go. In front of them the HW teams, in front of them the platoons. And just turtle up in the corner and try to get at least half of his army to take the long way across the board while I deal with his closer units first. His only template weapon that will be a problem is on the defiler, and I would dump everything into killing that first.

Or what if I just did all drop troops? for the platoons and everything?

I was actually going to remove the hellhounds.. I had 2 last game, and they did nothing but get blown up. the few shots I got, they did negate the cover save, but the AP isn't good enough so he got his power armor save instead which was better anyway.

For Meltaguns, I usually don't take them because it just seems, if they're close enough to be used, they're close enough to be assaulted and wiped next turn. I usually go for plasma for the extra distance... plus I have tons of plasma guns, I converted a lot using marine plasma pistols

I'm actually starting to think now... what if I left all the tanks out.. and just did all infantry. use a HW platoon, and infantry platoons. So I'd have some lascannon squads going. I'll do some support weapon squads for some demo charges. And platoons with missile launchers and plasma guns, cmd squads with 4 plasmas. Or would I want to do no heavys in the troop platoons, so that they can be mobile and move away from them as they get closer, to avoid combat while the other units shoot em up? Or like to try and bait him into assaulting a throw away unit like maybe a remnant squad, so that his followup move after he wipes them would leave him out in the open where my other men can gun him down? Or shall I try that a conscript spam to just keep his units all tied up in a bogged down combat that will take a couple of turns to resolve, so my guns can focus on other things?

Here's I would take.


JO with Honorifica, Iron D, and Standard 81
Anti-tank, LC x 3 110
Anti-tank, ML x 3 95
Fire Support, AC x3 95
SW Squad, Demo, Flamer x2, Drop 63
SW Squad, Demo, Flamer x2, Drop 63

Troops #1
JO , melta x 4, Iron D, drop 85
Squad with ML 75
Squad with ML 75
Squad with ML 75

Troops #2
JO , melta x 4, Iron D, drop 85
Squad with ML 75
Squad with ML 75

Leman Russ, hull HB, smoke 148

Good Luck, and may He watch over you. Barring that, may he grant you 200 extra points so you can get another Russ in there.

Oooh. List tailoring. What fun.

BYE

Well if I manage to win my BFG game, I'll have 1500 pts to use.. and I think I stand a good chance.. but I still want to plan for 1200 just in case.

I was thinking, against plague marines and their toughness and double armor saves, would it be good to maybe skip having just 1 tank for every one of his lascannons to shoot at and blow up prolly on turn 1, and instead maybe take a techmage fella with 3 multimelta servitors and 1 plasma cannon? They come out to about 200 pts or so..

Is he playing a pure Plague Marine List? Then we won't have lascannons.

Ah, the predators. I missed that.

Take a heavy weapons section, perhaps? I was also thinking RRiders as a counter charge unit, since lances=PW=no FNP.

if you are at -1000 pts dont even try to stop him hitting your lines!

i would try an all mech army and do some damage in the first 3 turns then drive 12" away maybe another 12" move in the 5th and grab objectives in 6th turn (a draw is all you need).

hope that he does bring plasma and flamers instead of meltas and use your smokelaunchers in the crucial turns!!!

2 lema russ , 1 demolisher, grenadiers with meltaguns in chimeras, ...

shot and run for it! ^^

greetings Badger

Badger,

Wie gehts!

Chimeras are already overpriced, and none of their weapons negate FNP. While I understand your point about mobility, chimera are not the proper choice for this.

The Plague Marines are going to get to his lines. Nothing will stop that. When that's likely to happen, one of his line squads needs to advance to over 7 inches away from the next squad, rapid fire, and take the charge next turn. Plague Marines carry a heavy points burden, and if the OP can make them walk their way over, it's going to expose them to krak, and lascannon fire the entire way. That negates their primary advantages, FNP T4(5), and a 3+ save.

With a multilaser, you'll hit once or twice, wound about 2/3's of the time, and he'll get two saves versus it. No thanks.

here's a quickie list I threw togehter last night

HQ

Junior Officer w/ Honorifica Imperialis
- 3 Guardsmen
- 1 Standard Bearer

2 Anti-Tank Squads w/ 3 Lascannons

Troops

2 identical Platoons with:
- 4 plasmas in the cmd squads
- 2 squads each w/ plasma & missile launcher

2 Units of 20 conscripts, 2 flamers in each

Elite:
Techpriest Enginseer w/ plasma pistol & power weapon @ 205 Pts
- 3 Multi Melta Gun Servitors
- 1 Plasma Cannon Servitors

Total Roster Cost: 1197


At first I was thinking the conscripts would be like gaunts and tie up a unit or 2 and slow their advance in a long assault while my guns focus on other things... but I think they'll just get wiped and not do much, so I can remove them and replace em with either a 3rd unit in each platoon, or if I tweak it right I can probably do another techpriest w/ servitors. Seems like a lot at 200 pts though, but that is a lot of marine-melting stuff.

Against deathguard the battlecannons are your best friend, near naked russes(single hwybolter) is about the best point you can spend in an IG army.

What I worry about most with the tanks is they will be ineffective. He will have at least 2 predators assigned to killing my tanks. So my plan was that if I can get the kind of tank firepower from a unit like the tech priest, without a tank that will be useless from just 1 glance, I will basically make his anti-tank stuff be ineffective. So his predators will shoot 3 lascannons at a unit of guardsmen hiding in some ruins with a 4+ save. Just seems with such a bad difference in points, I'm better off throwing more men at the problem

If I can manage to pull off a draw, and he sticks around my homeworld for another fight, I'll be at full strength.. so if this army works I'll keep it, then with the rest of my pts for the next game I'll add all my tanks back in

OK here's a new list I put together, removing the conscripts and adding a new infantry squad to each platoon, and with about 20 extra pts I used that to put sharpshooter on the lascannon teams. Wasn't sure where else to use 20 pts and make it worthwhile...

HQ

Command Platoon @ 321 Pts
- Command Squad @ [81] Pts
-- Junior Officer w/ Iron Discipline; Honorifica Imperialis, CCW & pistol
-- Standard Bearer
- Anti-Tank Squad w/ 3 Lascannons, Sharpshooters @ [120] Pts
- Anti-Tank Squad w/ 3 Lascannons, Sharpshooters @ [120] Pts


Troops

Alpha Platoon @ 340 Pts
- Command Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Junior Officer w/ Iron Discipline; CCW & pistol
-- 4 Plasmaguns
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol

Bravo Platoon @ 340 Pts
- Command Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Junior Officer w/ Iron Discipline; CCW & pistol
-- 4 Plasmaguns
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol


Elite

Techpriest Enginseer w/ PW & pistol @ 195 Pts
- 3 Gun Servitors w/ Multi-Meltas
- 1 Gun Servitor w/ Plasma Cannon


Total Roster Cost: 1196


Wadaya think?

6 squads at 1200. Good. Not a fan of the ML's, but this is list tailoring, and as I've said, if your local meta is all Necron Warriors, then ML's are good. Death Guard are kinda like Necron Warriors, so the same applies to them.

But the Techpriest? Bad! Evil! Wrong! No! Hyperbole!

Drop it. Now.

That's over 15% of your army there in just that one unit.

He's a horrible waste of points, and you can get SO much more for the money.

BYE

Yeah I see what you're saying there.. did some more tweaks.. basically removed the lascannons and added all MLs.. I think they will be more than enough for 2 rhinos, 2 predators and maybe a defiler. And that will cut back on points allowing me to get more guns in there. str 8 instead of 9 will still wound a marine or his demon prince just as easily. so I dropped the techpriest and added a HW platoon with all MLs, which also gives me more plasma in their cmd squad, but each one having 3 instead of 4. I liked the techpriest cuz of the multimeltas and plasma cannon, that woulda messed him up good but with so few points it's just not worth it.

HQ

Cmd Platoon
- Command Squad @ [81] Pts
-- Junior Officer w/ Iron Discipline; Honorifica Imperialis, CCW & pistol
-- Standard Bearer
- Anti-Tank Squad w/ 3 Missile Launchers @ [95] Pts
- Anti-Tank Squad w/ 3 Missile Launchers @ [95] Pts

Troops

Alpha Platoon @ 330 Pts
- Command Squad @ [75] Pts
-- Junior Officer w/ Iron Discipline; CCW & pistol
-- 3 Plasmaguns
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol

Bravo Platoon @ 330 Pts
- Command Squad @ [75] Pts
-- Junior Officer w/ Iron Discipline; CCW & pistol
-- 3 Plasmaguns
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol
- Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
-- Close Order Drill; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
-- Sergeant w/ CCW & Pistol

Heavy Support

Heavy Weapons Platoon @ 265 Pts
-- Junior Officer w/ Iron Discipline; CCW & pistol
-- 3 Plasmaguns
- Anti-Tank Squad w/ 3 Missile Launchers @ [95] Pts
- Anti-Tank Squad w/ 3 Missile Launchers @ [95] Pts

Total Roster Cost: 1196

how about now?

So this list will be fighting nothing else?

Even so, some Autocannons couldn't hurt in there, in case you run into something that isn't T4(5) Sv3+/4+FNP.

And are you sure there won't be any AV14 hulls, as you'll be hurting if you do run into any. Maybe swap out one or two of those Platoon HQ's so that they have Meltas instead.

BYE

Yeah I'm only using this list for this army..

his army always has a demon prince with wings and warp time, 2 predator annihilators, a defiler w/ reaper & cc arm, 2 rhinos and then he just fills the rest of his points with plague marine squads, with a mix of plasma guns and meltas. He does have a land raider but he only uses that for apocalypse games. I don't expect him to change his list at all for this game. Last time, he also won our BFG game and that gave him extra pts to play with, so he removed the defiler and added 3 obliterators.

The only change I'd expet him to do is the obliterator thing if he wins BFG again, if I win the BFG game i'll get 300 pts to spend since it's my homeworld.. then I think I would use that for either a pair of russes without sponsons, or a pair of basilisks. Or maybe a 3rd platoon instead? I'm kind of hesitant to dump pts in tanks for this game since all it will take is 1 glance to make them useless

Bring lascannons so you can be fairly sure to stop his vehicles, since they seem to be the biggest treath. It will also help if he brings extra obliterators. The more lascannns you have that can bring a halt to his predators will make your Russes more worth also.

youd better hope he doesnt tailor his list against you, or read this thread.

a note on tanks:

2 predators with 3 lascannons wont really hurt russes all that much. hell hit with 4 lascannon shots, but those will only actually do anything 1/3 of the time each. take russes and use them to pound the snot out of his plague marines. perferably 3 naked russes will be such a big pain to him. with your tanks killing is infantry, your infantry can focus on his tanks. bring lascannon and a few missile launchers. guard can put out an insane amount of heavy weapon fire, even at such a small point level, so take advantage of them.

finally you may want something to counter charge when he does get you your lines. roughriders with lances are about as good ad your going to get. S5 power weapons isnt something plague marines are happy with facing.