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I've been trying to wrap my head around how to build a White Lions
unit (I mean, I have painted 15 models). Without upgrades, 14 White Lions
is 210 points, and 20 White Lions is 300 points. I suppose they could
be a BSB holder with 19 White Lions for 285 points (285 for the White
Lions, the BSB points are already figured into the army and I'm just
left wondering where to place him).

I suppose the small unit works if the BSB has the Battle Banner. Then
I'm guaranteed a CR of +2, with an average of +4.5.

6 wide, 2 ranks, full command.

Lets 2 guys and still get +1 CR.

7 attacks (with champ) to the front.
Short of heavy cav (who shouldn't be getting much in the way of CR anyway) you'll knock off enemy to ensure the win.

Use your RBTs and archers to knock a CR point of large enemy units before you get there though.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:6 wide, 2 ranks, full command.

Lets 2 guys and still get +1 CR.

7 attacks (with champ) to the front.
Short of heavy cav (who shouldn't be getting much in the way of CR anyway) you'll knock off enemy to ensure the win.

Use your RBTs and archers to knock a CR point of large enemy units before you get there though.

Hell, even heavy cav should take a beating from White Lions. Wounding on 2+ with a -3 to armor saves would definitely eliminate a few models from a cav unit.

BUt- Most heavy cav will be hitting them on 4+ and wounding on 2+ (essentially a kill) for the rider and 4+ for mounts.

It will all come down to how effective ASF has been.

IMHO if there is a forest on the board then White Lions are the best unit of all the HE units due to their mvt rules and extra protection vs shooting.

For general purpose use, I like units of 7 with musician only. They can grind down fully ranked units fairly quickly (7 Ws5 S6 ASF attacks will do that) but if you are looking to break enemies quickly, 14 with full command and warbanner 7 wide is rather amazing.

For units with that much hitting power, determining whether width is better than ranks is simple. Every 2 models wider you are = +1 CR against normal opponents. It takes 5 WLs to get +1 CR from rank bonus that can be shot off. That should be all you need to come to any conclusion

For a line unit I would go for 18 instead of 12. You get a better return as you can afford a lost round of combat, not unlikely when facing heavy cavalry, ASF or not.

However if you want a holding unit, take spearelves and keep your White Lions as MSU flankers.

Im not sure I understand - with a unit of 12, unless your opponent kills 7 or more WLs, there is no difference when compared to a unit of 18, other than the additional rank. Not many cavalry units can manage that after the ASF attacks.

Lately in my lists ive been going 7X2 with Korhil in there. I call out challenges with him as much as possible, ASF + killing blow is 100% NASTY. Since I have included this unit in my army I have not lost a fight with them, also once against dwarfs I got them to kill 3 seperate units and didn't even take a wound because I took out the front rank every single time(also killing a lord and a rune priest along the way with Korhil)

im even debating dropping all my swordmasters for another 14 man unit of white lions

I'm avoiding special characters for now.

they are the stubborn guys right, because then i say make them stupidly large and run them all the way across the table so that the enemy cannot draw LOS to rear units and then have gaps on the flanks so chariots can slip by and hammer the enemy while you BSB is sitting there making you ld 8 guys reroll tests all day and kill crap in the mean time. if they aren't the stubborn guys then i don't think they're worth it

Yep. Stubborn.

string them across the table then, i playtested the technique once and it did not too bad and was a total shock to the opponent who proceeded to charge in lose some guys win combat but then just sit while the lions kept killing the enemy unit slowly but surely until it broke. in the meantime bolt throwers on a hill can rip the enemy apart. it's just a silly idea but i think it can work if played right

stubborn units still need to make panic tests for 25% casualties right?

they are only stubborn for break tests in combat? or am i not citing the rules correct

Yes.

However, it's possible to give White Lions the immune to
psychology banner.

So if you're playing for full frontage annihilation, you can
mitigate panic tests with that if you like.

that's exactly what the full tactic would be. have them with a character with the cool sword (forgot the name) and then the unit takes the lion banner (?) and have the BSB run behind them.

also take a gun hill with two bolt throwers and two archer units, then take two spear blocks and boom, army done

Why not just play Empire, then? They get cheaper stubborn and better shooting. Also, it would look ridiculous and probably bullseye your comp in any league or tourney.

Magic that hits each model in the unit could be problematic. As could something like zombies on the 1 man flank.

yes i thought of that yesterday and figured three units wuld be much better with the really nasty one front and center. then the others would go on either side.

i know that tactic is dumb and can be beaten but the first time you put that down on the table i'm sure your opponent won't know what to do as 1. he's never seen something like that done before, 2. high elves are just nasty, and 3. S6 really scares people. it's more of something to do to be different and do something the opponent has never seen before

I've been looking at a unit of 15, for versatility. That way you could get a +2 rank bonus if you used a 5-wide formation, or choose 7-wide and have two ranks plus one extra in a third rank for when/if you get flanked.