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The idea behind this list is for the WG, Farseer, Harlies, Avatar, and WL to act as a big angry block of anger. Anything that gets too close will pay. I ordinarily hate Harlies on foot because the enemy will dart in, rapid fire, and kill them all, ignoring Veil of Tears. But with all that nastiness surrounding them on all sides, any enemy that tries such a stunt will pay for it. And any enemy that tries to take out my WG or tie up my WLs in close combat is Harlie food. It's perfect synergy! I hope >.>

HQ

Avatar 155

Farseer w/ Doom, Fortune, Spirit Stones, Singing Spear 133

ELITES

6 Harlequins w/kiss +1 Shadowseer w/kiss +1 Troupe Master w/power weapon 222

TROOPS

10 Wraithguard +1 Spiritseer w/conceal 396

9 Dire Avengers +1 Exarch w/dual cat, bladestorm, Wave Serpent w/dual scannons, spirit stones 277

9 Dire Avengers +1 Exarch w/dual cat, bladestorm, Wave Serpent w/dual scannons, spirit stones 277

HEAVY SUPPORT

Wraithlord w/brightlance, wraithsword 140

Wraithlord w/missile launcher, wraithsword 125

Fire prism w/spirit stones


And yes, I know the prism has no holofield. That's because the holofield isn't worth the points in 5th ed.

You are mistaken about the holofield.

This army is all over the place. Is it a vehicle army? CC army? Shooty army? Tarpit army? MC army?

Answer: All of the above, and none of the above.

As usuall, dont run only 1 av thing in your army or it will eat all the anti tank weapons there is. Either many or none and since you seem to go for WL-WG better dump it for one more WL.

The harlies doesnt seem to really be that needed considering you have heavy CC already, maybe those points could be spent better elsewhere.

Stelek wrote:You are mistaken about the holofield.

This army is all over the place. Is it a vehicle army? CC army? Shooty army? Tarpit army? MC army?

Answer: All of the above, and none of the above.

Are you saying it's bad because it doesn't fit one of those categories? Is there a category for versatile and well rounded?

Why am I mistaken about the holofield? In 5th ed, skimmers moving fast still get penn'd. A holofield is not terribly likely to save you from a pen. The reason it was so good in 4th was because skimmers moving fast could only be glanced.

Kallbrand wrote:As usuall, dont run only 1 av thing in your army or it will eat all the anti tank weapons there is. Either many or none and since you seem to go for WL-WG better dump it for one more WL.

The harlies doesnt seem to really be that needed considering you have heavy CC already, maybe those points could be spent better elsewhere.

I think this army has a target overload for AT fire. The enemy will need AT weapons to take out the Wraithguard, Wraithlords, and Avatar. And also the 2 Waveserpents, AND the fire prism.

I think the heavy CC I have isn't enough. Avatars and Wraithlords can kill, but they can't chop through an assaulty enemy. They especially can't do anything about a horde army. They are very prone to getting stuck in gaunt broods or ork mobz.

you better hope you dont come up against a mech army. one bright lance, one missile launcher and one prism cannon doesnt really do anything.

holofields are still good because its the difference between your prism having a 1/3 chance of dying on a penetrate or having a 1/9 chance of dying on a penetrate. if add a cover save into that it gets much better.

wraithswords probably arent the best idea on a wraithlord. unless you run then (in which case their guns do nothing) theyre not as good as a shooting weapon.

you say this is versitile and well rounded but you will get out fought by combat armies (once squad of harlies and the odd MC isnt enough to excel in combat), outshot by shooting armies (most of your shooting is short ranged only and the combat you have is footslogging and slow) and out manuvered by mech armies (you dont have enough anti-tank to kill their stuff and the two squads that are fast enough to keep up with them pack no punch).

Ixe wrote:

Stelek wrote:You are mistaken about the holofield.

This army is all over the place. Is it a vehicle army? CC army? Shooty army? Tarpit army? MC army?

Answer: All of the above, and none of the above.

Are you saying it's bad because it doesn't fit one of those categories? Is there a category for versatile and well rounded?

Why am I mistaken about the holofield? In 5th ed, skimmers moving fast still get penn'd. A holofield is not terribly likely to save you from a pen. The reason it was so good in 4th was because skimmers moving fast could only be glanced.

Kallbrand wrote:As usuall, dont run only 1 av thing in your army or it will eat all the anti tank weapons there is. Either many or none and since you seem to go for WL-WG better dump it for one more WL.

The harlies doesnt seem to really be that needed considering you have heavy CC already, maybe those points could be spent better elsewhere.

I think this army has a target overload for AT fire. The enemy will need AT weapons to take out the Wraithguard, Wraithlords, and Avatar. And also the 2 Waveserpents, AND the fire prism.

I think the heavy CC I have isn't enough. Avatars and Wraithlords can kill, but they can't chop through an assaulty enemy. They especially can't do anything about a horde army. They are very prone to getting stuck in gaunt broods or ork mobz.

Holo-fields still about doubles your chance to survive a penetrating hit and makes glancings close to useless.

With countercharge-casualty removal a "small" squad with harlies wont be able to handle hordes either.

Also, the avatar-wraithlords really only have a small threat range leaving AT to focus for the Prism (and depending on army type the serpents) directly and then moving on to the other things in round 2.

Okay, people on Dakka don't like this list so far... But here's a third version you might like more!

HQ

Avatar 155

Farseer - Fortune, Singing Spear 88

ELITES

7 Harlequins w/kiss + Shadowseer w/kiss 206

5 Fire Dragons + Waveserpent w/spirit stones, twin brightlance

TROOPS

10 Wraithguard + Spiritseer w/conceal

8 Dire Avengers + Exarch w/bladestorm + Waveserpent w/ Spirit stones, twin brightlance 280

8 Dire Avengers + Exarch w/bladestorm + Waveserpent w/ Spirit stones, twin brightlance 280

HEAVY SUPPORT

Wraithlord w/wraithsword, shuricannon 110

Wraithlord w/wraithsword, shuricannon 110

I'm still left with the same question I resisted posting earlier... Why Dire Avengers? Fire Dragons?

Why not focus on the hammer/anvil tactics that make Iyanden worth a feth:

2 x Farseer with Fortune (one with Runes of Warding)

2 x 7 Harlequins w/kiss
+Death jester
+ Shadowseer w/kiss

2 x 10 Wraithguard
+Spiritseer w/Conceal

3 x Wraithlord w/Brightlances

It's not perfect but with some tweaking I'm sure you'd get more mileage out of it than the Dire Avenger/Suicide Dragons idea.

EDIT: Oops, forgot to mention you have 15 points left with the above list which you can use to buy singing spears for the Farseer/Spiritseers. I left them out because I don't think they're that hot, but you have enough points to give one to all 4 of the models capable of having them.

Why Dire Avengers? Anti-horde and mobility. Why Fire Dragons? Anti-tank and mobility.

I'd be deluding myself if I thought that a block of nothing but Wraithguard, Harlequins, and Wraithlords could take apart a real horde army. Harlequins just don't have the staying power to tear through large units all by themselves. They're good on the charge, but they have to be kept in reserve until just the right moment. Against hordes, especially with 5th ed's countercharge rules, they'll be overwhelmed, even if backed up by WLs. DAs help fix this problem. They disembark 18" from the enemy and unload 30 shots per squad, then load back up and fly somewhere else. Their mobility keeps them from being suicidal - they'll descend on a flank where they can kill whatever is in charge range, giving them general impunity. Without the kind of firepower that DAs can provide, this list would have no prayer of winning against a horde opponent like orks.

Fire dragons are more just hedging my bets against tanks and 2+ save baddies. Wraithguard can pop just about anything, but some tanks are going to hide in the backfield all game and make my life miserable, especially ordinance tanks that will try to drop pie plates on my harlies over and over. Without some mobile anti-tank, those types of units will have me by the balls.

What you're proposing could be good against certain enemies, but is far from an all comers list. My goal is to make a nicely themed Iyanden list while still being competitive.

Suit yourself, DAs really are crap though. Just ask around. I love playing in tournaments and seeing DAs. Fire dragons were pretty nice in 4th but unless you plan on driving your wave serpent up, turning it around and dumping them out the back you won't even get 1 turn of full unit firing on your target before they're mulched by rapidfire revenge (due to skimmers blocking LOS)

YMMV, just relating my personal experiences. I know many players in the local area that refer to Dire Avengers as the "Noob Squad".

I'd like to know more, if you don't mind... They seem very nice to me. Being able to put 60 shuriken shots wherever I need them seems like a good thing... And, from ranging across many 40k boards, I am confident that DAs aren't restricted to noobs. Maybe you just haven't seen them used properly? They're not the easiest unit to get a grip on, beacause they're medium everything - medium armor, medium range, medium power... Requires finesse.

And skimmers don't block LoS in 5th. 5th ed uses "true" LoS for vehicles. If your model can see, it can shoot. So if a skimmer is floating high enough for the models to see under it, they can fire away. Or at least so I've been told.

DA's are crap?

I guess I'm not playing the same guys you are playing, but my expiriance are that they are anything but crap.

DA suck. If you aren't sure why, please bring them to a GT. See how often they die horribly and/or do nothing.

Kinda like how WW are "good" where you are. They actually aren't any damn good.

Anyway, I find it funny that someone doesn't understand how holofields are good in 5E.

Let's see...the same damage table for glances or pens.

For glances, they really make nothing happen.

For pens, 33% of the time nothing happens on the table (options 1 and 2).
Option 3 is you lose a weapon.

So on average dice rolls...66% of the time, nothing happens.

Yep, not any good.

zmc wrote:
2 x Farseer with Fortune (one with Runes of Warding)

2 x 7 Harlequins w/kiss
+Death jester
+ Shadowseer w/kiss

2 x 10 Wraithguard
+Spiritseer w/Conceal

3 x Wraithlord w/Brightlances

This list can be good against MEQ armies, but it has trouble against hordes.
Here is where DAs come in. They die easily against MEQ armies but excel against mobs and smaller and medium bugs.

How are DAs any good against horde? They might get one round of shooting before the Ork/IG/Nid return fire blows them off the table...

EDIT: As an afterthought, if your skimmers are floating high enough on their flying bases for your units to see the "body" of the enemy model (re: pg.16) then you're basically setting yourself up to have them never get cover saves. Remember LOS is drawn from a model's head to the enemy's body in the case of infantry.

zmc wrote:How are DAs any good against horde? They might get one round of shooting before the Ork/IG/Nid return fire blows them off the table...

If they have the chance to fire back. So the DAs should be carefully positioned.

EDIT: As an afterthought, if your skimmers are floating high enough on their flying bases for your units to see the "body" of the enemy model (re: pg.16) then you're basically setting yourself up to have them never get cover saves. Remember LOS is drawn from a model's head to the enemy's body in the case of infantry.

That's another 5th ed nonsense.

Re: "That's another 5th ed nonsense."
I'm not sure I understand? Unless he's using different flying bases throughout the session (good luck with that!) he's going to have skimmers who have around 1.5" of clearance underneath them so his DAs can fire under it. Good luck hiding that behemoth behind anything when you want to obscure it.

zmc wrote:How are DAs any good against horde? They might get one round of shooting before the Ork/IG/Nid return fire blows them off the table...

That's what the skimmers are for. You may be right about DAs on foot, they just shuffle up, unload, then die. But DAs in tanks can go where it's safe. Either they attack an isolated corner of the enemy army, where return fire can't get them, or they act in concert with the rest of the army so that I have assaults block the enemy's attempt to eat the DAs. Like everything in the Eldar army, they suck horribly when used in an unsupported commando style. That doesn't mean they suck period.

Oh, I see.

You are using the Dire Avengers that are able to disembark, fire, and re-embark on the vehicle in the same turn. Why didn't you say so!

In all seriousness, even with the robust and well thought out concept of operations you've put forth how do they mesh well with the wraithguard (footslogging), harlequins (stomp, stomp, pant), avatar (run forrest!) or wraithlord (zomg slowpokes). Or were they being counter-charge supported all this time by the CC monster mech fire dragon squad which suffers from the exact same weakness as the DA but costs more points?

I feel as if my insistence that Dire Avengers are the foam-helmet wearing siblings of the Eldar army is bordering on trolling at this point, but wouldn't a squad of Guardians (who are able to take AT or Horde defeating heavy weapons) going to be able to do the same thing for less points and be more flexible strategically?

People always mention how having just one tank on the board makes all the anti-tank go at that vehicle, and it's dead. It's the same with troops. Having fragile foot troops in an army of monsters (and invisible Harlies) makes all the anti-troop go at them. Guardians would not make it. You don't get any tactical flexibility from a dead unit.

I've tried to explain to you how mechanized DAs are supposed to work. I guess you've never experienced an opponent with the finesse to pull it off, because you don't seem to be able to grasp the concept. I've explained it as best I can. DAs go after isolated enemy units, or they hang back until they're supported by the slower core of the army. They don't go in commando, no part of this army ever fights alone. Except maybe the Dragons, who are only 80 points - they might suicide themselves when it means destroying an expensive tank in the process.

Relying on your opponent to make a movement/deployment mistake in order for a unit to become effective is... ah nevermind! Good luck! Great list!