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Straight to the point, is rhino rush really not that viable anymore?

Apparently, I've seen couple people in my FLGS still do some rhino rush, and sometimes it can be pretty overwhelming. I'm a fan of rhino rush also, however, i would like to know what you guys think is a good tactica for Ultras.

THX, I haven't played for a while, so I need to catch up with the newest tacticas.

Depends on your definition of Rhino Rush.

3ed: Assault out of rhino. Transports could score. Effective and common strategy.

3.5 (TAR TVR): Nerfed to oblivion. No assault out of rhino means 0 reason to take them.

4ed: Move and shoot rapid fire gave rhinos a purpose again. Entanglment and fragility of transports made it somewhat unpopular oustide of certain armies (Sisters of Battle). Drop pods generally work better for armies that can take them. Transports not scoring made taking lotsa rhinos an issue in some missions. Overall a perfectly usable but not overly effective strategy.

5ed: Still pretty early but move and shoot rapidfire is still around and transports are more survivable. Rhinos will likely get cheaper when the new dex is released in Sept. Also transports can contest now. Overall a bit better then 4ed but still not the same as 3ed.

Ultras can do rhino rush, but since they usually cannot take the dual special trait in current dex they are a bit subpar at the 4ed version of rhino rush.

HTH

Ah, I see. That makes sense. thx.

My general build for Ultras are rushing to objectives or rush to some squad that can be obliterate w/ rapid fires, then run for objectives, while rhinos can provide screening.

The next question that I have is how I should my sergeant now, with the 5th. Power fist won't get +1 attack with Bolt pistol, so I assume it's useless to bring BP with it. However, bolter or combi bolter sounds like a brilliant idea. With that in mind, I'd say plasmagun with combi-plas + PF combo, and so forth with the other 2.

The next thing also... Heavy weapon in rhino rush. Why? They can't shoot if they move, but I see that people bring Las-Plas combo in rhino rush. Can someone explain this?

Thx again.

The next thing also... Heavy weapon in rhino rush. Why? They can't shoot if they move, but I see that people bring Las-Plas combo in rhino rush. Can someone explain this?

I'm guessing the people who do that intend to use the Rhinos as mobile terrain/walls, not transports proper.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:

The next thing also... Heavy weapon in rhino rush. Why? They can't shoot if they move, but I see that people bring Las-Plas combo in rhino rush. Can someone explain this?

I'm guessing the people who do that intend to use the Rhinos as mobile terrain/walls, not transports proper.

Also worth noting is the one fire point on the Rhino which potentially allows the lascannon to fire if the tank has not moved. Of course it's usually not optimal to keep a squad like that in a transport for obvious reasons (limits firepower, added vulnerability, etc), however it does provide some added flexibility.

The next thing also... Heavy weapon in rhino rush. Why? They can't shoot if they move, but I see that people bring Las-Plas combo in rhino rush. Can someone explain this?

Because you don't know you're going to move.

IMO Rhino rushes are a more viable option. They are not as broken as they were in 3rd, and not a death trap as they were in 4th. It feel its nicely balanced between the two.

I've been playing my World Eaters army with 5th ed rules for about a month or so now, and the new vehicle damage rules makes them tough as nails. I've seen my 3 rhinos move forward, pop a smoke, then weather the full force of an IG gun line, and end up with nothing but crew shaken and a weapon destroyed on more than one occasion occasions. (I play mostly against IG, Eldar, and SW.)

The fact that there is no entanglement makes it good for assault troops. Move up as fast as you can and park it in front of the enemy where they won't be able to escape from being charged the next turn. If they blow the rhino up, they will still eat the charge the next turn. If not, just pop the troops out and charge, then the rhino is free to blow LOS/Ram/Pick-up troops who lost their transport/deny Ojectives.

I've played 9-10 games so far (I know its not a lot, but I feel its given me a general idea as to how rhinos fair in 5th). I've only had 1 game where all 3 of my rhinos were destroyed at the end, and in that game, I still managed to deliver the bulk of my troops into the enemy line. (vs normally having all my rhinos destroyed by turn 3 in 4th ed)

In objective based games, they are great b/c they contest objectives. on a few occasions, they were the difference between winning and a tie. In kill points, they become a little more of a liability. They got tougher, but they are not THAT tough.

I see. I played a game earlier, and me and my friend was playing 1k points. The rhino really made a bit tougher. It actually survived the battle till like 5th turn, due the covers and added survivability.

It brought my bolter squads all the way, and the fact that it annoyed him by contesting the objectives is so priceless.

I love Rhino Rush. Woot!

BTW, anyone remember Bolter Drill Lysander from 2nd edition?

Cheaper rhinos, no entangle and 4+ coversaves.. whats not to love

But for ultra marines specifically, maybe not that awsome for assult rushes. As mobile covers and objective grabbing they are always valueable.

Transport rushes are all about rapid fire these days. That's why you see Fish of Fury and Mech Eldar loading up on basic Troops, surrounding an enemy, and annihilating it. Now, Marines aren't necessarily the best choice for transport rushes. Their shooting is good, but there's not much special about it. Like everything Marine-y, they're good at transport rushing, but not great. I think the best Marine armies will continue to be balanced lists. The strength of Marines is balance; going for an unabalanced list, while it used to be the way to go in 3rd ed, is no longer smart. A few rhinos for the purpose of rapid fire hosing can add to any list, but making it the basis of a Marine army is unlikely to be very good.

The Governator Council wrote:The next thing also... Heavy weapon in rhino rush. Why? They can't shoot if they move, but I see that people bring Las-Plas combo in rhino rush. Can someone explain this?

Thx again.

In the next edition, Marines will presumably get bolt pistols in addition to their bolters, as per the current DA 'dex. A heavy weapon gives your Rhino squad increased versatility and the HWG still gets to pop off a bolt pistol shot while the rest of the unit rapid-fires. Also, this makes the aforementioned "top hatch lascannon" is possible, although I doubt it will actually be seen in most situations. It's just another thing in the bag of tricks in case an opponent errs.

With entanglement gone, rhino rush is back again. Just the simple fact that you don't sit out in the middle of no where for a turn after your transport blows up makes the tactic totaly viable again.

Phoenix, don't lie to me. No entanglement? R you kidding me?

can someone double check on that?

When the transport is blown up a leadership check is taken to avoid the effects of entanglement.

Actually its a pin test, entanglement is gone. That is important cause it means fearless models are immune. Also, no more damage adjustments based on speed of travel. Very simply -- only a result of 6 or more (vehicle explodes) causes damage to the embarked models (s4 closed top, s3 open topped). Very very nice.

The Governator Council wrote:Phoenix, don't lie to me. No entanglement? R you kidding me?

I tell you no lies. Its gone. You can be forced to make a pin check under certain conditions (moving fast or something like that...don't remember exactly) but you're going to be leadership 9 if you're in a rhino (since you will almost certainly have a vet sargent) so you go an 83% chance of passing it. That and fearless models auto pass it.

Time to dust off those rhino models.

winterman wrote:Actually its a pin test, entanglement is gone. That is important cause it means fearless models are immune. Also, no more damage adjustments based on speed of travel. Very simply -- only a result of 6 or more (vehicle explodes) causes damage to the embarked models (s4 closed top, s3 open topped). Very very nice.

Go go cult marines!

I think Chaos benefits from this a lot. You get 35 point Rhinos that can move up, pop smoke if necessary (it's actually included in the 35 points) then dump the guys out to where they can rapid fire with their bolters and the next turn they can charge in with bolt pistol and close combat weapons. And all of this can be backed up with flying demon princes and the fact that your ten man marine squads can take two meltas/plasmas/flamers.

This tactic worked well enough in 4th ed. for me but entanglement was always a pain. With the loss of entanglement and tougher overall vehicles it can only get better. Also the Rhino is completely unaffected by the changes to vehicle firepower. Your bolters are still defensive weapons just like before. Also, once the Rhinos have dumped their cargo you can have them form wolfpacks and go hunting for small/vulnerable units or just generally get in the way. I had a pretty comical game where four of my rhinos completely mauled a unit of dark reapers. Four twin linked bolters at short range isn't too shabby.

My 1850 list is basically

2x flying demon prince

6x Rhino w' ten man squad w' two special weapons (I prefer melta because you really need the anti-tank), as many power fist champions as points will allow

1x Defiler (with maxed out close combat attacks)

For 1750 just drop the Defiler.

My friend the Rhino rush is tougher than ever with the new run rule, in fact assault squads are a waste of points now.

move Rhino 12"
disembark troops move them up to 2" from hatch
in shooting phase run up to 6"


Yes thats a total of 20" movement in the FIRST TURN!!! Gunlines are #$#$ I dont know how a lot of armies will deal with this tactic.

I'm not sure that will end up being the best place to be, i.e. 4" in front of the other army?

Without being able to assault OR shoot until you've hopefully weathered the storm of fire and/or assaults by them?

Gunlines are going to just fine, unless your assault can completely overwhelm the majority of said gunline (Orks?)

I don't think Marines will be able to bring enough numbers to bear to effectively do this.

tomguycot wrote:I think Chaos benefits from this a lot. You get 35 point Rhinos that can move up, pop smoke if necessary (it's actually included in the 35 points) then dump the guys out to where they can rapid fire with their bolters and the next turn they can charge in with bolt pistol and close combat weapons. And all of this can be backed up with flying demon princes and the fact that your ten man marine squads can take two meltas/plasmas/flamers.

Don't forget that your champs can get combi weapons. Getting an extra flamer or melta shot once per game can be huge.

Watcher in the Dark wrote:

Don't forget that your champs can get combi weapons. Getting an extra flamer or melta shot once per game can be huge.

I will have to look into fitting some of these into the list. Now that you don't get the +1 attack for the power fist and pistol the combi weapon is probably the way to go.