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DISTANCE, PATIENCE, CAUTION- Three words to remember when considering this army.

Grey Knights are a SHOOTING army. Not a HtH one. Base Int 4 turns HtH into an attrition battle, which we cannot win due to low model count. Our Codex presents us with the means to fight at range and have a STRONG counterattack when the assault finally reaches us. Filling the air with lead and rewarding our determined opponents with str 6 once they DO get into close combat is the best way to fight for us.

The shrouding helps to facillitate this, actually becoming effective protection when keeping at maximum ranges. Average rolling gives our opponents a sight range of 30-33 inches. That is dead in the middle of what our opponents will roll, failing to spot our valuable Terminators. Range of Psycannon is 36". Assisted by targeters, we can esure that our shooting units are 'just' in range to a target unit...the formost target unit. One target within 36" and the rest of the enemy army beyond that is ideal. PAGK also may utilise shrouding when advancing 'toward' the flank of the main body of the enemy army. Ranging just within their maximum StormBolter range of 24" if possible, shrouding will place you out of reach of the units towards the middle and opposite board edge of his army. This takes away his option of consolidating firepower onto a single unit.

Assault firepower also insures that we remain on the move, maintaining maximum ranges and jockeying for a better position while losing non of our own potency during the shooting phase.

A word on charging: True Grit on our PAGK means that there is little to be gained by charging into close combat. Perhaps you want to rob the opponent of an attack in close combat and that is the reason you move forward 6", shoot, then charge 5-6" into close combat, but think about what this has done. This may have brought your 5-6 PAGK 11" or so forward into charge range of MORE of his troopers. Perhaps you won the combat, but now, he can reinforce. Think about THAT before you charge. Maybe its better to move back just a bit and receive the charge. His troops may perhaps gain an attack, but at least you arent stuck fighting an endless stream of troopers charging into the combat until all hope is lost. Caution....caution.

A quick note about Anti-Armour: It's wise in a tournement list designed to take on all comers to fill your heavy slots to the maximum with armour..our only avenue for valuable lascannons. Dreadnaughts and Land Raiders. Tanks must be stopped and these are the only means we have to deal with them at range. Come 5e we will see a large bonus in Anti-Armour, our Nemesis Weapons will always be hitting rear armour. The advantage to this is obvious.

When considering our lascannon armed Tanks and/or dreadnaughts, again, maintaining maximum range is key. Many things can kill a land raider when it is within 12" including chainfists, power fists, monstrous creatures meltaguns...the list goes on. That list is much shorter when you move beyond that up to 18"-24", flying creatures, Multi Meltas, ect. Up to 36" you have bright/dark lances and other weapons that my still reach us. Once you get out BEYOND 36" our vehicles will retain their effectiveness, however, only lascannons, railguns, and some forms of ordinance may reach us. There are still things that can kill a tank at range 48, but the list is MUCH shorter than things that might kill it at 12" away. This is how to acheive some longevity in your expensive land raiders and dreadnaughts.

Obviously, for competetive play, pure Grey Knights requires Patience. Patience to stay at range, to not advance until the last possible moment (if at all), patience to wait for your opponent to get frustrated with your heavy armour and shrouding and force him to commit HIMSELF...then react and try to foil his plans with everything in your arsenal.

Those are the basic tactics I have learned in the short time playing this army thus far.

That bring us to....OUR CODEX

As we are playing PURE Grey Knights (because we are just that awesome and enjoy making our opponents wonder how they lost to what is agreed to be the worst army in 40k) I will only be addressing our codex, and only those units that are associated with our chapter. No inquisitors, assassins, allies, nothing. They are crutches. We need only our faith in Holy Ceremite, blessed bolters, and the Emperor to win. *beats fist on chest*

A WORD ON TIME-Considering the points spent on each unit in our codex, we are outnumbered, use this as an advantage. The time you save in moving troops and units shooting is utilised in thinking out every single move. If, after you think about a particular move, you see that in doing so you will lose an unacceptable amount of troopers, DONT DO IT. Our troops come at a premium cost and every threat has to be examined. Don't fly through your turn, take time. You have time.


HQ

THE GRAND MASTER- A whopping point sink of a close combat monster that can be KO'd by a single powerfist hit. He's effective in close combat, but difficult to protect. People fear him for his str 6 Force weapon, but the amount of points required in order to tool him out seriously hampers the rest of your army as a whole. He's a close combat monster, but we are a shooting army, the points needed to bring him hurt our shooting game. A note however, if you simply MUST bring this guy, 5e sees him having access to the fast becoming extinct 'retinue' rule. Very few HQ's are having bodyguard retinue's availiable. The 5e rulebook describes a retinue as a unit that is bought by your character and that he may NOT leave. Being part of this unit makes that character count as an UPGRADE character such as a vet sargeant in a space marine tac squad, untargettable in close combat unlike other independant characters joining whatever squad they like. Hence, no longer vulnerable to the one-shot KO that a powerfist hit would bring. Interesting.

BROTHER CAPTAIN- A solid HQ choice this one, with a Psycannon he comes in at just under 100 pts. 5e sees him having to join the nearest squad so our terminator squads basically have 3 psycannons in them. Cheap enough to risk deepstriking in enemy territory for rear shots on tanks or that raider loaded with incubi. He's not worth loading up for HtH combat with the single wound....he's essetially an independant character terminator sargeant. Again, our army isnt a HtH army, its a shooting one so this guy is just what the doctor ordered, adding another psycannon to the list...maybe master crafted if you've got 15 pts laying around.

BROTHER CAPTAIN STERN- A cheaper force weapon than the GM. A second lord choice. If you need either of these things in your game then Stern isnt a half bad selection. His special ability rerolling a dice in every phase is quite the ability...quite useful. You ARE obligated to tell your opponent that he gets a RR for every one you use, but dont worry, you ARENT obligated to remind them....and they will forget. Hate Tyranids? Deploy Stern against a Zilla Nid, clear a flank of synapse, and watch him eat carnifex after carnifex and your opponent can do nothing about it but wonder how Grey Knights beat him.

ELITE

GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS- How can you go to battle without these guys. They are the mightiest hero's the imperium has to offer. Pricy, but worth it when cautiously deployed, these guys can form the long range anti-personnel arm of your army. A frustrating source of casualties for your opponent. These guys can sit back at maximum ranges with the aid of a targetter from a PAGK squad and loose psycannon rounds into the enemy with little fear of return fire in the correct situation. When the enemy advances into 24" range they're rewarded with MORE firepower. A squad of these guys can carry two psycannon or incinerators. Since deep striking is way too risky with such an expensive squad without the aid of a homer, incinerators are wasted. Only psycannon make the terminators power felt from turn 1 on. Give one to the squad and another to the Brother Captain, attach your HQ Brother Captain (5e) and watch them light up unit after unit. Watch shrouding be effective turn after turn. Then, when your opponent is tired of getting torn apart at range and finally manages to make it to your lines...watch these guys tear the remnants of his army apart in close combat....now that the odds have been evened out. Many will try to make these guys a HtH alpha strike in a large squad charging out of a Crusader...think about how many points are tied up in that unit and reanalyse your plans. Caution, always caution with this army. Grey Knights have been fighting for millenia against the horrors of the void, they dont use rash and reckless tactics. They are cold and calculating.

TROOPS

POWER ARMOURED GREY KNIGHTS (PAGK)- The backbone of our list. These are premium troop choices that are awesomly equipped space marines. Fearless, Shrouding, Aegis, Storm Bolter, Nemesis. They are worth the points spent on them...but you must use every ability to keep them alive. Once again, do not focus on the close combat ability. WS 5 Str 5...these are not close combat troopers. The humble storm bolter is a mighty weapon when used en masse. PAGK will outshoot any space marine tactical or equivalent squad short of devestators. A five man squad can spit out 10 bolter shots at 24" range. Thats a threat range of 30" after you factor in movement guaranteeing you first shot in a bolter duel. Orks advance, you back up...shooting at full effect. Tyranids advance, you retreat...shooting at full effect. When the enemy finally reaches you, his numbers have dwindled, and you reward his stubborn determination in getting into arms reach with Str 6 attacks hitting on 3's to the teeth. THAT is what our close combat ability is for. Don't forget about your Storm Bolter. Hit the flanks of an enemy army to see shrouding go into effect...he wont be able to consolidate firepower on you if he's spread out. If he's in tight formation, stay back and support the terminators until his hand is forced. You have time. EQUIPMENT. You may find yourself wanting to bring special weapons in your squad. For 25 pts you can upgrade 2 PAGK to carrying psycannon, at first glance this may seem like a good idea. Perhaps it even fits into your game plan, but think about it however. For 25pts, you not only upgrade to a psycannon, but you DOWNGRADE having no Nemesis, true grit becomes worthless, and now you have a weapon that encourages your squad to become less mobile. Many of your abilities become hampered here. In a five man squad, with 2 psycannon, you now have a mini-purgation squad with two men supported by 3....instead of 5 men working together with the same purpose. Personally, I think that every Grey Knight needs to be on the same page. For a special weapon, think of the moderate abilities simply upgrading the Justicar, who has access to wargear, can bring. Psycannon rounds make his stormbolter ap4 ignoring invunerable saves...not bad. Targetters are pure gold at 1pt. Even Icon's of the Just may possibly be useful in a squad, saving against that 1-2 powerweapon/fist hits that a tactical-type squad might bring in. All these little abilities can make the SQUAD better and they lose nothing.

FAST ATTACK

DEEP STRIKING PAGK- Do you have teleport homers in your army? Can you afford to have a large chunk of your force in reserves when you're outnumbered to begin with? Can you afford to give up another scoring unit and replace it with a unit that gives another kill point? These guys can possibly be useful, but the only reason for deep striking brings you much closer to a possibly 'fresh' enemy. I cannot see these guys as being truly useful. Two incinerators are only useful in this sort of squad or one riding in a Land Raider....and a deviation can ruin your plans, leaving these guys as a major target waiting to be rapid fired on. That being said, everything basic PAGK are, these guys are also...just add on deep striking.

HEAVY SUPPORT

PURGATION SQUAD- Our devestators. You stand still on a hill and blast away with (more expensive) psycannon. Charge out of a landraider with incinerators. To me, it seems like too much of being in a rush. Spend more points for a single squad to do something more effective than other squads...but at a really high price. 5 purgation squad members with 4 psycannon cost ALMOST DOUBLE what a single 5 man squad of PAGK cost!....and again, you lose true grit, nemesis, and in the case of psycannon...mobility. Lets go on to what our heavy support should really be utilised for...anti-tank....

GREY KNIGHT DREADNOUGHT- If space marine dreadnoughts are indeed going up in price as indicated in the dark angel codex, be ready to be happy. At 15 pts cheaper, our lascannon armed dread not only has WS 5 over that version, but access to 'the Aegis'. Not too shabby. This behemoth fits right into our plans of sitting back and shooting....all the way back....board edge back. He's got a lascannon and can still reach out and touch enemy tanks with it, if you're willing to give up the moderate counterattack ability of the dreadnought CCW giving him a missle launcher grants even more anti-armour utility at 4 feet, making him better at his job. With no land raiders....bring 3.

GREY KNIGHTS LANDRAIDER/LANDRAIDER CRUSADER- Landraiders are becoming a problem for armies to deal with come 5e. Sitting behind enough cover or targetted from the front with only the side showing for a 3+ cover save its the new holo-falcon. Don't let them guilt you into not taking 3 if thats your thing. We're playing Grey Knights, one of the supposed 'worst' (har har) armies in 40k. Landraiders are a safe haven for PAGK's to retreat to in case an enemy gets too close with not enough teeth pulled. An adamantium bunker with an assault ramp that extends the charge range of your men if you're forced into a charge. While a single Landraider is simply a target for your opponent to take out dual or even 3 Landraiders can form up a stout line of anti-armour firepower that your army needs. 6 twin-linked lascannons is respectable anti-armour for any army. The transport capability makes them a reactive unit who's utility is obvious in this list. Stay back, caution, there are not many weapons that can stop a Landraider when its over 3' away, but there are MANY weapons that can stop it when its within 12". This makes the Crusader not quite as useful. Not for us. The Landraider Crusader's role in an army is clearly defined. It's one of the, if not THE, best assault tank in the game. Pile hard close combat troops into it, charge it at the enemy, and disgorge them amongst a storm of bolter fire, assault cannon fire, and frag launcher shrapnel. Reckless for us. Grey Knights require precision. A loaded LR Crusader with 7 terminators aboard is a target begging the enemy to shoot at it and be stopped. It also is FORCED, due to the nature of its role in battle, to get within a dangerous threat range of melta, monstrous creatures, and other things that make short work of its respectable but not invulnerable armour. Also, in a Grey Knights army, the LR Crusader lends nothing to the army in the form of firepower that the basic troopers dont already have in droves. The Crusader is all 'anti-personel' and very little anti-tank. Granted, its anti-tank power can be potent, but it's Multi-Melta isnt twin linked, and requires the tank to be too close to the enemy. Land Raiders have much longevity when at range. The standard-pattern Land Raider is made for Grey Knights. Its versatility granted thru transport ability and dual lascannons for filling that anti-tank gap that Pure Grey Knights lack give the armies abilities that are found nowhere else in the list.


For now, that concludes this tactica. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed writing it and maybe it can help out. These are by no means the ONLY way for a Pure Grey Knight to fight a battle, but I've found that this has been an effective way of running them...for me. Also, my thanx to 'Silent Requim' and others on "Bolter and Chainsword", some if not many of these ideas started out in posts that they've made. I'm here to simply spread the word. Grey Knights can ideed fight. Thanx for reading


Now, take up thine rod and staff, thy armour and psycannon, and go forth!

I like the tactica. Ihave always played my GK's as pure and I also play the long distance shooty game. I go with 3 dreads all armed with las/ML. The army is solid but not great.

Darrian

See, this is how you do it. The problem I finds is that GK players tend to throw away their 200+ point squads to kill off 100 point squads and this basically costs them the game. But I would love to play against a intelligent, cautious GK player sometime using the tactics listed above.

PAGK will outshoot any space marine tactical or equivalent squad short of devestators.

Disagree with that. Las + Plas vs storm bolters = bang you're dead.

But, with storm bolter, you will get sheer number that you need to kill at 24". Guarantee that Las+Plas will kill 4 easier wound and no armor saves, but for each, at 24", they can only kill 1, while w/ SB, they can kill 2. If you face horde army, SB will prove to be a lot more useful than Las+Plas.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:PAGK will outshoot any space marine tactical or equivalent squad short of devestators.

Disagree with that. Las + Plas vs storm bolters = bang you're dead.

Apparently, you've never heard of 4+ cover saves.

Using cover, and monitering range with targetters (to possibly keep a portion of the enemy squad OUT of range), 5 grey knights with storm bolters can concievably outshoot TEN space marine tacticals WITH las plas.

Nice tactica Deadshane.

However, I wonder how fully you've considered the 5th edition environment. The Grandmaster is now a nearly worthless choice; most armies are fully resistant to Instant Death, especially those where you need it most: Chaos HQs and 'Nid monsters. Additionally, the loss of "fire lanes" and the reality of being targeted just about anywhere on the board will generate serious issues for puritan GK commanders. Suddenly our PAGK are overpriced with naught but a 3+ save to protect them from twice as many heavy weapons on the other side of the board. Relying on shrouding is a game of luck, and for me leads occasionally to frustrating losses due to better-than-average rolls by my opponent.

All of these issues will be vastly magnified and complicated by the addition of the "run" rule. They can "run" forward for three turns, but eventually we run into our own table edge... And if you *do* backpedal, chances are you're short enough on firepower that he'll have sufficient units left to hold/contest objectives that you stand no chance of reaching by the endgame.

The sad truth is that it's not that hard to out-shoot a purist GK army. Against assault-happy opponents, you stand a better chance, but against SAFH style forces you're fighting a losing battle. With so few units in an average army, it becomes easy for a more numerous foe to counter your deployment strategy, as it becomes evident almost from the get-go.

I'm convinced that in the 5th Edition environment, GK are best used as they were originally intended to be used: making full use of that special little rule entitled "By the authority of the immortal emperor of man..."

I, for one, look forward to having a Leman Russ MBT running around with my dual Land Raiders, supported by a generous host of Guardsmen, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, and GKTs...

ColonelEllios wrote:Nice tactica Deadshane.

thanx!

However, I wonder how fully you've considered the 5th edition environment. The Grandmaster is now a nearly worthless choice; most armies are fully resistant to Instant Death, especially those where you need it most: Chaos HQs and 'Nid monsters.

I really dont understand how an "untargetable in HtH IC with a str 6 power weapon" is worthless. Sure, the 'forceweapon' power has been neutered, but he's still a menacing figure with that sword. ( I also hear rumours about differences between 'force weapons' and 'NEMESIS force weapons' coming out in a new DH FAQ after the new rulebook is released...we'll see )

Additionally, the loss of "fire lanes" and the reality of being targeted just about anywhere on the board will generate serious issues for puritan GK commanders. Suddenly our PAGK are overpriced with naught but a 3+ save to protect them from twice as many heavy weapons on the other side of the board. Relying on shrouding is a game of luck, and for me leads occasionally to frustrating losses due to better-than-average rolls by my opponent.

All the more reason to maintain distance(shrouding DOES work..its just not a sure defence like Harly VoT), work flanks, and try to power sides. Deployment and knowing who's going first also has effects in the new game. Valid concern here, I'm sure the battlefeild WILL change. I still see line of sight blocked however, just not by every bit of terrain on the board as is right now.

All of these issues will be vastly magnified and complicated by the addition of the "run" rule. They can "run" forward for three turns, but eventually we run into our own table edge... And if you *do* backpedal, chances are you're short enough on firepower that he'll have sufficient units left to hold/contest objectives that you stand no chance of reaching by the endgame.

The sad truth is that it's not that hard to out-shoot a purist GK army. Against assault-happy opponents, you stand a better chance, but against SAFH style forces you're fighting a losing battle. With so few units in an average army, it becomes easy for a more numerous foe to counter your deployment strategy, as it becomes evident almost from the get-go.

I'm convinced that in the 5th Edition environment, GK are best used as they were originally intended to be used: making full use of that special little rule entitled "By the authority of the immortal emperor of man..."

I, for one, look forward to having a Leman Russ MBT running around with my dual Land Raiders, supported by a generous host of Guardsmen, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, and GKTs...

...but thats not running PURE Grey Knights is it? Thats what this tactica is about, a guide for the masochistic.

These are all valid concerns...I feel a bit more optimistic about 5e however. Regardless, this tactica IS for Pure Grey Knights and these remain the best way to play them (IMHO) even in 5e. I think the new rules will be no better/worse for us than every other army out there, but thats just me.

Are you going to be able to beat the best players with the finest tuned easy to win with codex out there?....probably not, but using these tactics you can still go to a tournement and have a very respectable showing.

I never claimed that Grey Knights werent handicapped...everyone knows how hard it is to win with them. I'm simply trying to show people how to put up a fight...rather than charging forward thinking that we're an army of CC specialists.

This is a very interesting tactica. Do you think you could benefit us with a sample army loadout, with an explanation on what you took and why? I'm more than anything a visual learner and I think it would help me see your strategy a lot better with even a very rough army list to go by.

I agree with t Funkadelic, the tactica is nice and all, but it would be great to have a sample list in various point catagories, such as 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000pts or conversely drop the 500 and 1000pt levels and replace them with 1750 or 1850pts?

Just a thought,

Thanks,
Chappy P!

I like the tactica a good bit, and it very closely matches the sort of advice I have read from other successful GK players.

I do disagree a little bit on the psycannons in PAGK squads though. While it might make it more tempting to sit and plink out to 36", they can still fire and move up to 18". I think there is something to be said for leap frogging PAGKs, moving one squad forward and shooting just SB's up to 24" while leaving another to shoot psycannons at range (and maybe SBs), then next turn moving the other while the former fires to full effect.

Also, the teleporting PAGKs might be a good option for late game contesting of objectives since you seem to be doing a lot of skirting and backpeddling with the rest of the army (with good reason!) The trouble is that you will not be able to control when they come down, so you are probably correct in your analysis.

Still, very good tactica, and much appreciated!

It's really gratifying to see such a positive response to this tactica.

This is definatly all familiar material. I took much from 'silent requim' and others at bolter and chainsword when building my army. I felt that dakka could use a tactica for Grey Knights...its pretty barren here for them. What I HAVE seen are either suggestions to throw them into CC or simply not play them. It's such a rewarding army to play if you can get them to work, I've always thought it's a shame they get such a bad rap.

As far as the psycannon in PAGK units...some people favor them...its not uncommon. I simply cannot get over the fact that you give up and attack AND your CC str of 6 when you pay 25 pts however, personal taste though. There are some successful Grey Knight commanders that have psycannon spam thoughout their lists.

I'll be right back with a sample list of 1850....and perhaps even a few options for it.

Very nice Tactica. Matter of factly I play this way and win consistantly following these very same thought processess with the only except being that I use Psycannons in my regular squads also. Usually 6 man with 2 psycannons. Matter of factly some of this tactica and line of thinking without giving everything away qualified me for the Ardboyz finals last year. Kudo's Deadshane as you are the closest I have seen come to explaining in detail how to effectively run pure GK's.

BTW when Deadshane1 talks about out shooting marine squads and using shrouding I did just that against an ultra shooting las cannon army in the final round of Ardboys and massacred him as he had no mobility with those lascannons and I stayed at range and shrouded the whole time. He did have 2 assault squads and chaplains to deal with also but thats another story for another day.

Its tough to beat stormbolters as a basic weapon. It isnt hard to see the value when you consider the popularity of the current versions of Dire Avengers and Shoota Boyz.

...Grey Knights had it first.

I just played a 5th ed RTT yesterday and played GK's. I went 1-1-1 but it actually should have been 2-0-1 because I did not know that rhino's give up kill points in Annihilation missions.

I played with 3 dreads (las + ML) and they did fine but I might replace them with 2 LR's instead next time.

That was a great read, thank you. Grey Knights have always been an army I've wanted to play. Their models are some of the best GW puts out IMO. Please keep us informed as to how your GK perform.

Doesn't Blackmoor or Centurian99 have a Daemonhunters Tactica with a Pure Grey Knight section?

Centurian99 has some info on them on his blog.

Centurian99 wrote a tactica for Demonhunter back in 3rd edition. He has been meaning to get around to updating it, but he is busy until after all of the elections.

Unlike the OP, he runs an assault oriented Grey Knight force.

nice tactica deadshane

grrr reading good tactica's always makes me want to start collecting the army in question :(

I have a GK army that I originally picked up before reading any rules for one reason, I thought they were the best models GW produced. I have only played them a few times, and I thought they did fairly well for being generally outnumbered. I think the article is good and actually made me want to pull them out again.

Flaim

Blackmoor wrote:Centurian99 wrote a tactica for Demonhunter back in 3rd edition. He has been meaning to get around to updating it, but he is busy until after all of the elections.

Unlike the OP, he runs an assault oriented Grey Knight force.

He doesnt run PURE Grey Knights though does he Blackmoor? I think he runs more of a hybrid list.

I wrote this with only the Knights in mind...no help from the =I=.

Come on, even my "pure" GK list has an inquisitor and 3 mystics. You just can't go without mystics.

BTW, is there any way that the emporers tarot works in 5th ed?

Darrian13 wrote:Come on, even my "pure" GK list has an inquisitor and 3 mystics. You just can't go without mystics.

Sure you can...when you replace those 3 mystics with 3 Grey Knight Land Raiders

I can get 3 mystics for 18 points, your LR's cost 750.

Is this some Federal government sponsored points plan that you are using? If so, how do I apply?

Awesome tactica. Before I sold my army, I would use them in this fashion, but with one unit of =I= Stormtroopers for flavor. I think in 5e, they are a little more forgiving, since they can take advantage of the cover saves better while keeping the opponent at arms reach, while consistently punishing them in the shooting phase. Me likey.

Capt K

Very nice article this, I've been thinking of starting a Grey Knights army, they're so perty. I'm more of a painter than a player, but I can play a bit, so GK seem like a great choice for me. Using this tactica, I've put together a 1500pt list, what do you reckon?

HQ

Brother captain, psycannon, targeter
4 terminators, 1 psycannon, 2 thunder hammer/stormshield

Elites

Brother captain, psycannon, targeter
4 terminators, 1 psycannon, 2 thunder hammer/stormshield

Troops

Justicar, targeter
4 grey knights

Justicar, targeter
4 grey knights

Justicar, targeter
5 grey knights

Heavy Support

3x Dreadnought TL lascannons/ML

1500pts

Is that about right? Are thunder hammer/storm shields useful? Smashy hammers are my idea of a good time.

Not a fan of 5 man units. I know they score to the last but I like bodies. Otherwise decent list. I always include a single T-Hammer in all of my terminators' squads for when ST 6 isn't enough against toughness 8.

I've always found demon huntesr appealing (always loved converting their terminator models into tzeench thousand son terminators too! ^^). But anyway, the tactica really shows how to do it, most beginers fall into the trap of seeing the good stats on paper and misapplying strengths and such. I've never lost to demon hunters probably because they always try to get too close, too fast to armies that just have more bodies and more cc capability =(. I should direct them to this thread.