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I think this is a pretty solid list here. Have only played a few games with it (or close variants) in 4th edition and enjoyed some success.

Just wondering if anyone has any C&C for it at all. It is extremely tight points wise, hence the lack of champs in a few units.

I feel it's relatively balanced and has a good number of troop choices. I usually use khornate raptors but they have to go sadly for more troops.

This list is for the UK GT this year so I want it to be as competitive as possible!

HQ:

Demon Prince, Slaanesh, Lash, Wings

Troops:

10 Beserkers, AC w/ P. weap (land Raider)

10 CSM, 2 Plasmas, Ac w/ P. Fist, Rhino

8 Plague Marines, 2 Plasmas

6 Plague Marines, 2 Meltas, Rhino

Heavy Support:

Dakka Predator

Land Raider *for zerkers

Vindicator

How do people think this will do? any suggestions at all? I feel it has a slight weakness with anti-tank or lack of, particularly as the LR is mainly a transport for the first couple of turns at least.

One thing I am considering is between the Dakka Pred and a defiler for another template. However, AR 13 is always very useful. Another possibility is adding a LC to the dakka pred and dropping something else.

Thanks in advance

I'd put the plasmas from the CSM to the PM, and either add another DP or remove the 1 because he will always be targeted first and die in 1 or 2 turns, and add oblits instead of the predator.

Thanks for the reply

Yup, already decided to switch Meltas to CSM and plasmas to PM

Also, it's unlikely that the DP will be in sight in turn 1-2 or even 3 unless a juicy target comes to light.

I don't take oblits any more in this army, the more tanks the better I think. Also, i think oblits are overpriced/rated and ID is very bad on t4... If I was taking infantry, I would take Havoks as I have had much more success with them.

I am possibly thinking of taking an LC on the pred instead of the autocannon... 1 more shot vs anti-tank isn't worth it.

I think you want 2 Lash Princes, rather than just one.

I hear what you're saying about the lash princes but, if I were to have another DP, it would be a nurgle or Tz one.

I like Lash but it's not that hard to deal with if you know what you're upto usually.

I played with 2 DPs for a while and it's good. However, I like a few more shooty things.

Again, thanks for the reply mate

Pretty far from a competative list.

Virtually no ranged AT, single DP, basic CSM.. breaks pretty much all the competative building rules.

If you are running PMs to get the 2 special weapons and nothing else just bring 6 and save points.

To increase the army's anti infantry/horde capability, I'd replace the Vindicator by another Dakka Predator.

Kallbrand wrote:Pretty far from a competative list.

Virtually no ranged AT, single DP, basic CSM.. breaks pretty much all the competative building rules.

If you are running PMs to get the 2 special weapons and nothing else just bring 6 and save points.

and which are the competitive rules?

kaintxu wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Pretty far from a competative list.

Virtually no ranged AT, single DP, basic CSM.. breaks pretty much all the competative building rules.

If you are running PMs to get the 2 special weapons and nothing else just bring 6 and save points.

and which are the competitive rules?

for building tournament worthy CSM armies, this is a pertty good analysis:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Chaos_Space_Marines_Army_Analysis

The jist of that is:

Demon Princes > Other HQ Choices

Cult Marines > CSM

Obliterators > Than other Heavy Support choices

Standard core of 2 DPs and 6 Oblits in 1500pt games


In for general competitive building rules, in no particular order:

1)Bring lots of ranged anti-tank. Mech armies are popular in tournaments, so if you cant deal with them you will get destroyed.

2)Build army lists where specific elements focus on performing specific roles, rather than doing many things poorly.

3)Synergy is an exellent addition, but should not be a goal. Poor choices that are synergistic with each other are still poor choices.

4)With the increasing prelevance of horde armies over MEQ armies (and the onset of cover/tlos in 5th) multiple shot, relatively low strength weapons are of growing importance. (not 1 and 4 are not mutually exclusive, particularly for Chaos)


those are just a few off the top of my head.

What this means in relation to the posted list is:

Although an extra prince isnt absolutely necerssary, it is greatly advised

In a land raider is probably the only way to use berserkers well.

The CSM should be changed to cult marines of some form. Plague marines, Noise Marines and 1KSons are all advised.

Plague marines should have champions with power fists, there is no disadvantage for them. There are better options i you just want low AP guns (1Ksons for example)

Predators are bad in chaos lists. They are expensive and under performing. scrap it and get some obliterators.

Vindicators are much better than predators, but still not as good as obliterators. if you MUST have one, it needs demonic possession to make it vorth it.

Landraiders can be ok but as your only tank worth thinking about it will be the subject of all the anti-tank fire your opponent has (which, accoring to the rules, is a lot). if it lives beyone turn 1 it will die in turn 2. its a problem that you cant gt round if you want to keep it.

Remember that Oblits are S&P infantry. They will move slow as gak and they attract a lot of fire, being obvious targets. Zerks are fine, it's just a matter of reaching CC.
Edit: feth you language filter.

I suppose your Land Raider can sit back and fire 2 twin-linked lascannons for old fashion AT fire, but you might find that an assaulting unit of Zerkers will take down any vehicle that isn't a Land Raider or Monolith.

I'm not sure about the Vindicator. I'd consider dumping it and the DP for the Despoiler. Of course now you want 8 Zerkers cause Abby can ride with the 8 in the LR which gives you the points needed for that second rhino for the Plague Marines.

Most top table tournament Chaos lists contain 2 Lashes, Plague Marines and a bunch of Obliterators. That however was 4th edition and this is 5th.

However, even so:

You have basically zero ranged firepower and a very dodgy assault unit (Zerkers) with no way to get into assault.

When I say zero ranged firepower, I know you're going say "But I have a Land Raider". True, but there'll be armies there with 16 or more long-range heavy weapons (or move and fire 24" range ones). That's what I define as "credible long range threat".

When I say "no way to get into CC" I mean you are going to multi-tasking your Land Raider something awful.

Finally when I say "a dodgy assault unit" I mean what do you expect Zerkers to beat? Eldar? Assault Tyranids? Choppy Orks? ... if you just need to beat up Taus and Imperial Guards, normal marines are cheaper and Plague Marines aren't that bad (T5, 3+). If you want the Zerkers to scare off the nasty enemy assault men, it won't happen. I think the only thing Zerkers can expect to counter is the standard Marine assault squad, but that's faster than the Zerkers, your Daemon Princes are better, and your 1x10 CSM is basically the same as assmarines but bigger (more men), so will win. Really, give up with the whole concept of Zerkation. If you really want to see how bad Zerkers are vs a real CC unit, test on Banshees or something.

If you're going with Land Raiders instead of Oblits, bring AT LEAST TWO (and IMO three, or just don't try in 1,500 points). Standard CSM are actually OK in certain situations. It's arguable both ways if you want a heavy weapon on them or not. In your list, you need a heavy weapon.

WingWong wrote:I think this is a pretty solid list here. Have only played a few games with it (or close variants) in 4th edition and enjoyed some success. Just wondering if anyone has any C&C for it at all. It is extremely tight points wise, hence the lack of champs in a few units. I feel it's relatively balanced and has a good number of troop choices. I usually use khornate raptors but they have to go sadly for more troops. This list is for the UK GT this year so I want it to be as competitive as possible!

Demon Prince, Slaanesh, Lash, Wings
10 Beserkers, AC w/ P. weap (land Raider)
10 CSM, 2 Plasmas, Ac w/ P. Fist, Rhino
8 Plague Marines, 2 Plasmas
6 Plague Marines, 2 Meltas, Rhino
Dakka Predator
Land Raider *for zerkers
Vindicator

Thanks for the replies guys - really helpful.

Looking like I need to drastically change my list to not get my ass handed to me....

Something like:

2 DPs

6 Oblits

2x 8 PMs

5 Berserkers to cover oblits

5 terminators as a throwaway DS

Does sound pretty boring but should be competitive.

I built a Chaos army based on Stelek's template. Stelek takes a lot of grief on the boards, but I've found his advice to be logical and understandable, which means I can give it a good test.

One criticsm of his Chaos template was that it produces 'cookie cutter' armies. But, maybe that's what happens when your Codex starts with marines, and then takes away the best weapon system for marines-the assault cannon, takes away deepstriking landspeeders, your cheap artillery support (the whirlwind), increases the cost of your assault troops (Raptors or Berzerkers), and eliminates the 5-6 man las plas squad, which will be around until at least this summer for Vanilla Marines-who don't know fear, while you DO.

My observation: dual lash is crazy good. Cheesy? so are Vanilla Marine Terminator Librarians with FOD/Twin Assault Cannon Retinue. Don't forget, you can lash enemy forward OR backward. Forward can be more fun! Right into gun range....

I'm not as sold on using Tzeentch Princes to get the dual powers. You can still only fire once per turn. Their range is short IMO for antitank support. I'd rather use the Lash to keep the enemy off my Obliterators, and the increased initiative to get to strike first in many situations. If I was any good I'd say 'Your mileage may vary,' but I'm not that good....

I'd dumpt the Berserkers. Why? Check their initiative. Check out Genestealers. If you want a cheap unit to hold off an enemy advance for a turn while the obliterators reposition, then I'd take something cheap, not Cult marines.

I don't like the Deep Striking Terminators. DS is how I would deal with Fire Prisms and Rail Gun Tau Skimmers or suits who are going to sit back and outrange me. Obliterators can deep strike if its absolutely necessary...

Right now you only have 3 scoring units, and one is a small assualt squad. Time to trade those Terminators for objective grabbers. That means cult troops, plague marines, Noise Marines, Thousand sons. You could violate 'the rules' and try an iconed marine squad. You could also compare the terminators with an infiltrating Chosen squad as a focused antitank unit. Or, God Forbid, bring 2 more Obliterators!!!!

I think the Berserkers need to go, you're shooty, you're small, they're expensive and not that great in hand to hand compared to other tough assault troops from other armies.

Give us a report on the GT!

mike

I usually play 100% fun armies... Ones which work ok but have the models I like (hence berserkers)

I guess it's really a choice for me to either take fun stuff or an optimal list. I will be taking part in a few other more 'fun' tournies so I guess it's a competitive list for this one... And some hope.

Real basic list for now (and im sure many have done it before)

A:
dual Lash Prince

5 Berskers to protect (or maybe just CSM)

5 NMs w/ Ac Pfist, Doom siren, 4 Sonic blasters, Blastmaster x2

( or 2x 6 PMs with flamers + 1 NM squad like above)

9 oblits


Not sure how it would work in 5th though as there are so few scoring units. two squads of Noise Marines are very expensive tricked up.

Sorry, I saw GT in the heading and thought you were planning for tournaments rather than just friendly games. I think 9 oblits is too much at 1500 points, but why not give it a try? Oblits can move and shoot, that's often a good defense against advancing enemy. Positioning near their board edge can help prevent pie plate massacres! Mark to increase invuln save???

All cult marines are expensive. You'll be outnumbered, have to get used to it as a Chaos player unless you are willing to test the theory that ordinary CSM can be made competitive. But, while Vanilla Marines get 'traits' for free, you pay for the icons, which might not last, that would give you a higher toughness, initiative or save. I still think it might work, but you've traded NO KNOW FEAR for a pistol.....

Go back to 6 Oblits and buy more noise marines...., moving and shooting is fun.....

Yup, this list is totally for the GT.

I use lots of different and fun lists for frendly games.

Gonna try out 9 oblits tomorrow and see how it goes

I tried a list with 7 Oblits yesterday and have to say that it really is the way to go... Not sure if 2 DPs or one if best for me now though.

I would like 7-9 Oblits and 2 DPs but this means I miss out on troops choices. I also really want 10 Terminators. From my limited experience of 5th so far, most games end up a draw and goto VPs anyway. Would only 3 troops choices (2 PM/1NM or 2NM/1PM) really hurt me?

That's IF Victory Points are used in a tournament setting. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they used kill points to decide draws instead, with almost all missions being objective based.

I'd have to say that 3 troop choices, unless they are large or very resilient, isn't enough. How many men strong are they?

Don't give up on the Berzerkers just yet. I have found them extremely versatile coming out of a land raider in 5th edition.

The Berzerkers in a LR have a 20" range to a target. 10 of them give you 40 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's. They can bring a 30-man ork squad to it's knees in one assault phase (with the fearless orks taking a huge amount of extra wounds) 27-30 orks regularly drop to 5-7 after the first assault.

I also love the Berzerkers str 5 hitting the rear armor 10 of all those vehicles. They quickly bring down any tank they hit, even skimmers. Remember skimmers that move 6" or less to fire their weapons are now hit of 4's in combat.

I do think you need some CSM and not all Zerkers. The CSM are ideal to hold objectives far away from the enemy while the Zerkers are good at attacking the enemies objectives closer to them.

Don't forget the 'zerkers can shoot now before they charge, and have a choice of where they want to go. They are pretty formidable assault troops, and their champion gets a crap ton of attacks with his powerfist.

A fully Khorne army might be alot of fun to run with a huge gaggle of land raiders.

2x Flying Khorne Princes
3x8 'zerkers in Land Raiders

Comes in at about 1450.

EDIT: Even better, it's 8 units, and 8 KP's!

Just in case the oblits were not looking tasty enough...

Like always, keep them in cover for their 4+ cover... If they are getting nailed by Lascannons, typically what happens, Go To Ground for their 3+ cover. They are REALLY SCARY GOOD THESE DAYS.

With triple twinlinked flamer pouring out of 3 of them, you can hold/contest an objective indefinetely against even a horde of orks.