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Alright, I run a fairly simple Khorne blitz list. It's got 4 dog units, 3 min-sized Core units and a Bloodthirster. I've got the points left over for a unit of Bloodcrushers and an HQ.

Which of the following, given the setup described, is the better secondary HQ?

1. Herald of Khorne w/Juggernaught, BSB, Grand Standard of Sundering, Armor of Khorne
2. Skulltaker w/Juggernaught
3. No second HQ, just another 3 man unit of Bloodcrushers
4. No to both units of Bloodcrushers and that HQ, instead spend those points on ____________.

Option #1, if you don't want to get screwed over by most magic.

I'd avoid Blood Crushers and go with other options, like another Herald on Jugg w/ Armor of Khorne to go with a unit of Dogs, or Furies if you don't already have them.

I'm surprised to see you recommend buying a Herald on Jugg instead of a pair of crushers. It seems like they are better than he is in pretty much every way. Why do you think 2 Heralds would be better than a Herald and a unit he can give Hatred to?

As to the Herald in the dog unit...I've found that flesh hounds do fine on their lonesome, I'm more about increasing the # of units in the blitz than the individual killiness of the units. My way is to avoid things that are too hard for a unit of Flesh Hounds to kill until the Thirster can join in.

My question is why would you buy Crushers at all? They're a terrible unit, especially compared to Hounds, who do almost the exact thing that the Crushers do and get double the wounds for the same amount of points.

IMO, you should take the Standard of Sundering as your army is just plain hurting for Magic Defense, so at a minimum I recommend the BSB.

If you want another unit or two, use Khorne Heralds on Chariots before using Crushers. Though honestly a Herald on a Jugg pretty much turns a unit of Hounds into something that doesn't need a BT to take on most units.

This is all assuming you're dead set on taking pure Khorne. If you're open to taking stuff from other god's I'd recommend other units but I'm guessing you want to stay pure Khorne.

I don't see Crushers as a terrible unit. They are worse than hounds, certainly, but I can't get any more units of Hounds. They seem like better biltzers than Fiends, who are the other Rare blitzing unit. They kick the tar out of most other ogre-things for range and damage, and they can benefit from Locus of Khorne.

I've got the mini's for the chariots, (from my 40k list), but they don't charge on round 2 along with the rest of the army.

I'm not sure why I'd put a Herald in with my hounds. They can't benefit from Locus of Khorne, and he slows them down. Seems like it'd be better to have him free rolling and charge in alongside them, gaining another pursuit roll and such. I guess they'd give him a Look Out sir, but in all honesty Big Red tends to attract most of that sort of fire, a 0+ armor save and a 5+ ward save is probably enough for a Herald. I'd run em on their lonesomes, charge them in next to a dog unit.

I'm not at all wedded to pure Khorne (my core is Tzeentch, for example). I'm trying for pure competitiveness, I'll consider any and all Daemons of Chaos units.

Flamers. 12 of them.

Other than that, I do happen to like a lone Fiend for WM hunting along side Furies, if you can only afford 6 Flamers and have some points left over.

I didn't realize you had Horrors for Core, so you're not as hurting for Magic Defense as I initially thought, the OP implied it was Min size Khorne units for Core, or at least that's how I read it.

I do like the Standard of Sundering though, it's almost too good to pass up.

And you're right Crushers do hit relatively hard, but it's really not any harder than hounds and they are so incredibly frail for 70 Point 2 wound models, that I would avoid them all together and get something else that adds to your list, which Flamers would nicely do I think.

Hmm, adding in 2 units of Flamers (or 1 and the BSB) would change the tempo of the list, as I'd probably want to sit back and let the flamers do their thing, before sending in the hounds. I've tried them out before, and didn't get the best use from them, but that was in my earlier Daemon days. I'll give them another stab.

They should do wonders at stopping units of Fast Cav from trying to threaten your core units, or just providing missile support where needed (killing models to negate a rank bonus, etc). Plus just having something in the back of your army in order to protect something getting behind your Hounds should prove useful.

Try this ive found it to be pretty effective and flexible. I KNOW it doesn't have a greater daemon but i prefer the 4 heralds then pay 500/600 pts for a model that can be destroyed in one round of shooting.
The BSB and General boost their own units and the other heralds are scroll caddies and use there speed to get a flickering fire, gift of chaos, bolt of change where they need to be. the daemonettes are a minimum core that is fast enough to catch shooting units off guard. HOUNDS ARE AWESOME, nough said. Fiends are great for flanks and small units. the flamers are virtually the only shooting and this is vital in any combat army, to shoot anything that could mesh up your battleline

H: Herald of Khorne on Jugger with armour of khorne (General) 165
H: Herald of Nurgle on palaquin with slime trail BSB 200
H: Herald of Tzeentch Wings and spell breaker 160
H: Herald of Tzeentch Wings and spell breaker 160

C: 20 Bloodletters with FC 270
C: 20 Plaguebearers with FC 270
C: 10 Daemonettes 120

S: 5 Hounds 175
S: 5 Hounds 175

R: 3 Fiends 165
R: 4 Flamers 140

2000pts

I'd go with Skulltaker on Juggernaut. Magic be damned, just shove the children of Khorne down your opponents thoat and be done with it!

ok..then you can keep your 2 dispel dice ill just win more now that im not being bent over by a slaan or grey seer and getting spelled to death 'oh i can kill them good' he says 'but i cant get there fast enough cause i keep getting blasted with spells' is what you forgot to mention 4 DD and 2 scrolls is the MINIMUM needed to even call it magical defence. But as you said:

I'd go with Skulltaker on Juggernaut. Magic be damned, just shove the children of Khorne down your opponents thoat and be done with it!

youd be right but against low magical offence youll do fine but against 10+ PD you...err... wont

Man, read the post. There's 3 pink horror units giving 3 dispel dice. Everything's got magic resistance.

Grey Seer's are in a skaven list, and even imaging losing to skaven with this list takes brain contortions. Slaans are a little more fierce, as they can cast on their own units with some decent buffs, but basically its the undead that necessitate the standard of sundering.

I would actually worry about the Skaven to be honest, but not because of Grey Seers, but because of the rest of their shooting that can put a dent in the BT and your other units. The output by the near compulsory 3x Engineers is kind of Icing for them. Well all that plus the 5 units of slaves and 5 clanrat blocks that are going to be around to block your charges off, or force them to be inconsequential.

Still, this has little to do with your original question.

Also, here's something I came up with since the last time I looked at this topic that is particularly nasty and a near assured Comp-Killer for Demons:

Herald of Slaanesh, Steed, Siren (debatable to upgrade to alevel 1 just for the Stupidity spell, which is awesome).

You can use this on whatever turn you have to "expose" your BT before the charge. It's mostly useful against armies with Shooting, but all and all it's gravy against anyone.

You fly the BT wherever you need him. The Herald then uses the M10 to march exactly next to the BT, lined up base to base. In your opponents turn you activate Siren and force a charge with a unit that is too wide to just hit the Slaanesh Herald and poof, your BT is in combat and can't be shot.

Granted it doesn't work all that well vs. some armies who have enough expendable units where they won't mind fleeing, but it can save you from shooting.

If you use it on Turn 1 (which is doable if your opponent deployed like an idiot), they risk running off the board. Otherwise in mid/late game you can use a unit of Furies to fly behind them and cause crossfire if they do flee.

Also, it's plain golden against things like Tomb Kings, and against a slowed VC player who doesn't bunker up his unit with the general in it so it can't be forced out into a charging position.

I think the Bloodthirster kind of beats Tomb Kings on his own, but that's a mean trick for most enemies. I'll have to reconsider my disdain for all things Slaaneshi.

40kenthusiast wrote:I think the Bloodthirster kind of beats Tomb Kings on his own, but that's a mean trick for most enemies. I'll have to reconsider my disdain for all things Slaaneshi.

Ehh, 2 SSC's can put a Dent in the big guy, but yeah, in general the BT beats the piss out of them.

Also one thing I've found now that I've looked through the Slaanesh stuff is that lone Fiends aren't bad WM/Fast Cav hunters if you don't have the points for or don't want to run 12 Flamers.

If you have enough Dispel dice in a list a SSC is easily manageable. Tomb Kings are actually a good match up for Daemons because they are highly predictable. Also they are very fragile. The only thing to worry about is when you finally kill the TK or a Tomb Prince you need to pass that LD test.

As for the BT beating TKs on his own that is not entirely true. A King with the Collar and a Destroyer can cause a lot of to any Greater Daemon. To really win against Daemons one must use Furies as well as Hounds or a Single Blood Crusher to keep his Litch Priests contained as well as going after the SSCs early in the game.

I've been playtesting the Tzeentch Daemons a good bit, so I've had a chance to utilize the Flamers, running anywhere from 2 squads of 4 to 1 squad of 6 to (at one point) 2 squads of 6. The problem with the Flamers is that a lot of time they just don't seem to do enough compared with how expensive they are. They seem like they should just be awesome with the number of shots they put out, but instead they usually just seem to be... ok. They're rarely within 9" of what they're shooting at (against a lot of armies anyway) and they often need to move to get into a good shooting position, so it always seems that to get them shooting I end up hitting on 5's. That means the (on average) 21 shots the 6 of them put out hit only 7 times, cause maybe 4-5 wounds (maybe less if I'm shooting at higher than T3), and thanks to only giving a -1 to save, unless I'm shooting at guys with nothing but a 6+ they seem to end up killing about 2-3 guys in a round of shooting, typically not even enough for a Panic check. I've occasionally seen them be pretty vicious, but a lot of the time I've been underwhelmed when I consider the price tag of 210 points for the unit, and the fact that those points could go to 3 Bloodcrushers or 4 Fiends. (I've tested it out once so far with 4 Fiends replacing one squad of 6 Flamers and I've got to say, I was impressed with them.)