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Thought I would post this here and see what kind of answers I get. (Yes I'm aware of the can of worms thats about to be opened)

Ok to start with I run a very odd eldar army list. All Female. Which means that I am using banshees rather that scorpions. Now with that said I always upgrade for the masks. According to the rules:

Wargear
Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has Initiative 10 and negates any Initiative bonus conferred by cover and grenades.

A few keywords that popped up in my mind was the first round of an assault. Using these rules the banshees are Int 10 when they charge or get charged. In my mind the only way that Banshees are not striking first in the first round of combat is if they are fighting something with I10. However thats also me looking at the keyword AN meaning more than one combat can be done this manner. The other day my banshees were in fighting in a combat and a Int 7 brood lord charged them. By my understanding that is the first round of AN combat and is the reason he gets his charge bonus. (Which isnt the point) But as that is the first round of that combat shouldn't the banshee mask apply? As the rules currently read you only get your charge bonus on your first round of combat and according to the rules of the banshee mask it says nothing about not giving the bonus once your locked in combat.

Well, I don't have my Codex handy.
I did check out the FAQ on GW's website & there is no erratta on the Banshee Mask.

I'd say that, if you're quoting the rule correctly, then you're correct about what it means.


Eric

You are correct, or I think so, as you were kinda alll over the place. The Banshee Mask works in ANY first round of an assault, whether they charged or were charged. It does not state any requirements that they needed to be the ones charging, so you cannot just assume that this is a requirement. Typically, if this was the case, you would see the addition of the words "in the turn in which they charge" or something to that effect. Now, if they charge into a combat that is already in progress, then that is not the first round of the "an assault" anymore, so the rule would not apply.

On a side note, since 5th has now changed the Counter-Assault rules, a Banshee squad with an exarch and counter-assault would fix the being charged problem right quick.

To the OP: No. Your Banshees were already in combat when the Broodlord charged, so no, it is not the first round of combat. You do not look to the combat between specific squads; you look instead to the combat as a whole.

Otherwise, exactly what other people said.

DaBoss wrote:You are correct, or I think so, as you were kinda alll over the place. The Banshee Mask works in ANY first round of an assault, whether they charged or were charged. It does not state any requirements that they needed to be the ones charging, so you cannot just assume that this is a requirement. Typically, if this was the case, you would see the addition of the words "in the turn in which they charge" or something to that effect. Now, if they charge into a combat that is already in progress, then that is not the first round of the "an assault" anymore, so the rule would not apply.

On a side note, since 5th has now changed the Counter-Assault rules, a Banshee squad with an exarch and counter-assault would fix the being charged problem right quick.

True to what you said but my question is more about the brood lord who charged into the combat that was going on. As I said the rules state that a charge is considered the first round of a combat and from what I've read on banshees there is nothing saying that they cant use the masks in a combat. Maybe I'm looking too much into it as I also play WM but the wording to the effect of what is considered a first round of combat and nothing about being locked into combat is what makes me wonder about what is correct.

PS. While I agree with you on the 5th CA rules it still leaves the question as to if the masks can be used while in an ongoing combat when charged by a new unit.

Bear with me but look at this just for a moment. Banshee masks say that they grant Int 10 for the first round an assault. Im thinking this might be the key word here. When your in an ongoing fight its a CC fight so when your assaulted by a new unit at least by the wording of how they define combat that would be the first round of a assault. Yes its going into an ongoing combat but the assault part at least by the wording of game mechanics is clearly defined in the rules of the Banshees mask.

PS. If I'm wrong in thinking so please feel free to point out where I am wrong. I'm here to have fun with the game or I wouldn't be playing such an off the wall list of Eldar I would just like to know the ruling so I don't feel like I'm cheating the other player.

There's an implied bit of logic here, that you use the mask abilities on first round of an assault relative to the banshee's. When the Broodlord assaults, it is his first round an assault, not the banshees. It is all relative to the models involved.

If multiple combats were considered different combats/assaults, then you might have an argument. But they are considered one scrum, so it is hard to argue that the banshee's are in the first round of an assault in your example.

However, this is a good question and one that Yakface and council dealt with in their FAQ

RB.39.02B – Q: If models in an existing close combat are charged by new enemies, does it count as a “first round” of combat for special rules that require a “first round” of combat (Such as a Howling Banshee mask)?
A: Models that charge into an existing combat count it as a “first round” of combat. Models already fighting in the existing combat that are charged by new enemies do not count it as a new “first round” of combat [clarification].

Hope that helps.

While I haven't read the complete wording on the masks, your emphasis on the word "an" might be a problem. Interpretted another way, it might mean an assualt as one singular assault. Otherwise, wouldn't it have said each assault, rather than an?

For a quick clarification, the "first round of an assault" is the first round that the banshees are fighting. If they are still fighting and something new charges in, it is not the first round again, its just the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) with some new opponents added in. If combat is ever broken though, the counter would reset.

I agree with Phoenix and the others that have chimed in against banshee masks being used when the banshees are in an existing combat and charged by new combatants, which is why we ruled the way we did in the Adepticon FAQ.


An "assault" is something that can last several turns and it only has one first round. If the banshees are involved in the combat for several rounds and then get charged by new enemy combatants, it is still the 3rd, 4th, etc. round of the assault.

While it is most certainly the first round of combat for the models that have charged in, it is not the first round of the assault in reference to the Banshees, it is their 3rd, 4th, etc. round in that particular assault.

It's my understanding that in 5th, you will only get to attack the enemy you're already engaged with, but not the enemy that just charged. Unless I've misremembered the new rule, this won't be an issue any more.

As for 4th edition, I'd say that since the Banshees are already in combat, the new enemy charging makes it a multiple combat - so it's not the "first round" as it's still just part of an existing assault.

My only issue and a number of other people are agreeing with me is that the wording is still the first round of an assault and by getting assaulted that would be the first round of that combat.
Now I am wondering one thing. Are some of you thinking that I'm talking about getting Int 10 for both combats? Cause that's not what I'm asking at all. An ongoing combat is just that, the first round of that combat has come and gone and now by the rules of the mask your at your normal Int. (Which is still higher than most) I'm only talking about the models that would elect to fight the new combat. (Reading the 5th edition book you can still fight multi combats with models that are base to base.)

As several others have said, it's not the first round of combat for the banshees. And no, the individual models charged by the broodlord wouldn't get I10 as they are already in a combat.

the fact that it is the first round of combat for the lord has no bearing on the girls.

IIRC, 5th edition even makes a point of saying that no matter how many units might come into a combat in later rounds, no benefits will apply to any units already in combat.

just to reiterate the point:

if the banshees charge into a assault unit that is not locked in assault since the previous turn then they may use their banshee mask.

if the banshees have been locked in assault since their previous turn and are charge by a new unit they may not use their banshee masks.

(RAW) if banshees charge into an assault that has been going on since the previous turn they may not use their banshee masks


the last point is a bit of an odd ball since it would make sense that banshees would be able to use their masks if they we're charging inot an on-going assault, but since the first round of combat has passed then they may not.

Regwon wrote:just to reiterate the point:

if the banshees charge into a assault unit that is not locked in assault since the previous turn then they may use their banshee mask.

if the banshees have been locked in assault since their previous turn and are charge by a new unit they may not use their banshee masks.

(RAW) if banshees charge into an assault that has been going on since the previous turn they may not use their banshee masks


the last point is a bit of an odd ball since it would make sense that banshees would be able to use their masks if they we're charging inot an on-going assault, but since the first round of combat has passed then they may not.

Not to be rude but I'm 99% sure your wrong on that last point. If a unit of Banshees is charging a unit already in combat they get there int 10 as it is there first round of combat. Just because there is already a fight going on that wouldn't stop the unit from getting the benefit. (It would make banshee's almost useless if that was the case)

Antonin wrote:To the OP: No. Your Banshees were already in combat when the Broodlord charged, so no, it is not the first round of combat. You do not look to the combat between specific squads; you look instead to the combat as a whole.

Otherwise, exactly what other people said.

Oh, wow!
Good catch.
I totally missed that he said they were already in combat.
You hit the nail on the head!

Eric

Thank you, MM.

Cheexsta wrote:It's my understanding that in 5th, you will only get to attack the enemy you're already engaged with, but not the enemy that just charged. Unless I've misremembered the new rule, this won't be an issue any more.

Yes, you have indeed misinterpreted the 5th edition rules regarding this issue. Models allocate their attacks at the beginning of a combat, not at the start of the assault phase. This is after all assault moves have been completed for the round and indeed means that units in an existing combat who are charged by new enemies may allocate their attacks at these new opponents.