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with such a nasty nerf of rending, what weapons are now better on Speeders? MM or still AC? /ie MM + Heavy Flamer or HB + AC?
i want use 4-5 speeders in my future\current Space Wolves army so i'm really stuck here.

I always liked heavy bolter + heavy flamer myself, but with the last SM codex this was knocked down. And then I stopped playing loyalists :S

- Salvage

AC and HB are probably still pretty choice. MM is ok, but not twin linked, and at anyrate doesn't really want to shoot at the same sort of targets that a heavy flamer does.
Really you are looking at 4 Str6 and 3 Str5 AP4 shots vs 1 Str8 Ap1 and a Str5 ap4 template. A pile of anti-infantry and anti-MC shots vs one anti-vehicle and some anti-horde infantry.

Multimeltas have their place in an army, but I don't think it is on a landspeeder, unless you run a squadron of 3... nah, even then it is not very good I think. Anything that puts your landspeeder into rapid fire bolter range is very bad.

hm... they pretend to be Land Raider\Hammerheads killers in my SW list (= so by 5ed ruls isnt MM more good?
Or maybe mix them, lets say 3 with MM and 2 with AC\HB?
ps. main opposition are crappy eldar list, one csm, motorized (crisis\HH) tau, and i fear less all others.. (ig\sm\de)

The trouble with MM is that you have to be within 12" for them to be exciting. Granted, Landspeeders can move pretty quickly to get flank shots, but 24" is a very dangerous place to be, and 12" is even more so for an AV10 skimmer. Add in that you only get 3 shots for the entire squadron, and that gets a little dicey. Compare to an AC at 24" on side armor 12 say.

3 MM shots ~ 2 hits ~ 1 glance or better.
12 AC shots ~ 8 hits ~ 1.3 pen.

Now, at 12" the MM is almost guaranteed 2 glance/pens, but in return it is likely going to be taking a lot of small arms fire. At 24" it is relatively safe.

Plus, consider that after its tank hunting is complete, the MM skimmer still is awkwardly loaded out for troop killing, the heavy flamer being fun, but ultimately difficult to bring to bear in groups of 3, again putting the fragile skimmer into dangerous territory. What can the 3 MMs and flamers do in 9" that 3 ACs and 3 HBs can't?

Dont forget that MM gets +1 on the damage table due to AP1, so its alot more effective.

Why even bother with tornadoes? You can't move and shoot both weapons.

Personally, I don't think Speeders will be good in 5th. AV10 and no skimmer moving fast if you want to shoot means that they are WAY too fragile to be useful.

If I HAD to use speeders, I would say a squadron of ones with just HB's. They can at least try to use cover (But with vehicles having trouble getting cover, who knows)

FYI skyth, tornados and typhoons can move 6" and still fire everything. I'm thinking typhoons are ok (range and blast rules being the main factor) but dunno if cost of tornados is worth it under the new rules.

And if going with standard speeder I think MM is the only one worth using, as its the only one with a chance of making its points back. HB one will fire once and kill at most 30 points of models.

hm... no skimmers moving fast.. but 4+ cover save instead (= imho it sometimes a little better.
will try speeders with just a MM, and with HB\AC ones..

Keep in mind, the 4+ cover save for skimmers is only granted when going 12" or more. eg you either shoot or you get extra protection. That is why I think a typhoon is somewhat viable, cause any other loadout has to be pretty close in and open to multifire low s weapons that murder speeders.

I posted this originally on B&C, here's my rundown of the different speeder layouts in 5th:

Landspeeder w/ Heavy bolter - Similar effectiveness as in 4th. It can stay out of range of most weapons, while still picking off infantry squads. With the new damage chart, it will quite a bit of firepower to take it down. This is one of the cheapest layouts and I think one of the best for its cost, expect to see it often in 5th edition lists.

Land Speeder w/ Multi-Melta - Slightly more effective than in 4th. It still is one of the best anti-tank units available to Dark Angels, and at 65 points a bargain. Your opponent can't afford to ignore it and will have a difficult time destroying it with just small arms fire. I believe this will be one of the most popular, if not the most popular LS layout in 5th.

Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher - More effective than in 4th. The new template rules benefit this layout immensely. See the LS w/ HB description for more details on this layout. Even though you can't move 12" and fire both of the weapons, you have the superior range to make up for it. I see this build being much more popular in 5th.

Land Speeder w/ Multi-Melta, Typhoon Missile Launcher - I don't have any experience with this build, but I doubt it will see much action in 5th. The weapons just don't go together. The TML is a long ranged anti-infantry weapon, while the MM is a relatively short range anti-tank weapon.

Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer- This build is a little less effective than in 4th because of the defensive weapon rule, however it is still pretty effective at killing troops. It also provides some reassurance if you are worried about the main weapon getting blown off (however this is true for all of the builds with 2 weapons.

Land Speeder w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer - Similar effectiveness as in 4th. It is hurt by the new defensive weapon rules, however most of the time you weren't shooting both of the weapons anyway. This build provides versatility and I think it will see some significant action in 5th.

Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon - Less effective than in 4th. This layout was probably one of the hardest hit by the changed defensive weapon rules. It will see a lot less action because of the new defensive weapon rules coupled with its high cost. This build may still have its uses if you are willing to move only 6" a turn, but I doubt it will see much competitive play.

Land Speeder w/ Multi-Melta, Assault Cannon - This layout is in pretty much the same boat as the LS w/ HB+AC, much less effective in 5th edition.

In 5th, Land Speeders in general will be very effective at objective contesting because of their speed. The new vehicle chart makes it much easier to stun/destroy weapons on a speeder, but I think overall more difficult to kill a speeder.

Edit - I have been thinking about the effectiveness of the MM+AC and HB+AC combos and I think I was a little harsh in my first analysis of their effectiveness. Even though they can only move 6" a turn if they want to fire all of their weapons, they are still moving faster than a non-skimmer vehicle is. These LS layouts will probably see more action than I originally predicted.

Perhaps worth noting is that the rumored Salamanders Chapter Traits make all melta weapons in the army twin-linked, making a Land Speeder w/ Multi-Melta pretty much a no-brainer as a dirt-cheap, extremely effective tank-hunter.

winterman wrote:...a typhoon is somewhat viable, cause any other loadout has to be pretty close in and open to multifire low s weapons that murder speeders.

I don't like typhoon layout, 1) its pretty useless as anti-tank weapon. 2) its useless vs MEq's because of ap5.
and if opponent have brains - you will have hard time hittin more then one or two models with it.