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So, as we can see that 5th is coming, so does the "potentially" hazardous blast template, which on my consent, give me another headache. HOW DO I WANNA EQUIP MY Devastator squads???

Let's see what are the options for them.

Heavy Bolter
This is very nice against light infantry, decent amount of shots also

Lascannon
The Best Long-Range anti tank weapon for SM, although only 1 shot is not really appreciated. I still love this thing, coz it blows so many damn vehicles, but the point cost.... damn expensive.

Multi Melta
If I ever, EVER, take this weapon for devastator squad, I will see that Sun rises from the west. It's just that horrible to see this weapon in dev squad. Shortest range than any other heavys and the special "ability" only works at even closer range. I can't imagine having a dev squad that close to a tank. Must be something wrong there. No other comment.

Missile Launcher
This thing has been one of my favorites as the krak is possible to hurt vehicles pretty damn good and kills ap3 infantry, the frag is pretty much blast w/ bolter stat. W/ 5th ed., I so can see this thing taken as dual functions since blast scatters and although it scatters, it is POSSIBLE to still hit something. 4ML in a dev squad can almost do anything you ask them for.

Plasma Cannon
This thing will really get a new breath. Blast template that always there, regardless of scatter is just too much for me. True that it's possible to scatter really damn far, but w/ BS4, average scatters will be cut down to 2-3". I can't complain w/ that. The Best weapon against those 2+ armor crazyness.

So, back to the topic, How should we equip them?

In killing light infantry, Heavy bolter and Frag Launcher serve the same purpose, however heavy bolter is more killy, while missile launcher can shoot krak missiles that serves dual purposes.

For Heavy infantry, nothing serves the better option than plasma cannon. Btw, i considered Heavy infantry that's either T5 or 2+/3+ arm save. Krak Missile can do it, Str8 ap3, but it doesn't have the POTENTIAL killy-ness of a Str7 Ap2 blast.

Light Vehicle, Krak Missile and Lascannon is the best. Str8 and Str9, what more you need to destroy AV10-AV12.

Getting to heavy vehicle, Lascannon and, potentially, Krak missile would be the only 2 that would do. Sometimes, getting to side armor can be tricky against vet player, but against av14 all-around that's been harassing your army, I don't see anything better than Lascannon. That's if you really wanna destroy it. I'd most of the time ignore it since i believe that there are more things that's more important than destroying that av14 All-around.

This is what I think. I'd like to know what others think before deciding how my 2 (possibly 3) dev squad are gonna be equipped.
Comments and critics... they are welcome. TY

The Governator Council wrote:

Multi Melta
If I ever, EVER, take this weapon for devastator squad, I will see that Sun rises from the west. It's just that horrible to see this weapon in dev squad. Shortest range than any other heavys and the special "ability" only works at even closer range. I can't imagine having a dev squad that close to a tank. Must be something wrong there. No other comment.

Comments and critics... they are welcome. TY

You ever tried four in a ten man squad?

Yes, they don't do so good for me. Lack of range is the main problem with it.

I tried couple times, I tried to put those w/ as much cover and LOS I could gain, without forgetting the most crucial thing w/ Multi Melta, range. Blew only 1 or 2 Light vehicle or transport the most. True that it can dictate how the opponent place or move their tanks, but still not good enough for me. IF only MM has a bit longer range, I'd definitely take it, but my experience w/ it is not very pleasant.

I guess, I can try couple more times, and give it more thoughts.

You are probably right about MMs, doesnt feel so good to rush my heavy support unit into CC range of fast enemies. Ofc the new vehicle rules might change the need in AT weaponry and there the MM is supreme.

I also put the ML as a favourite. Cheap and multiple purposes.

For building the all comers/tourney style lists, the Missile Launcher is still a good buy for the Dev squads. I don't see this changing with 5th edition. However, I wouldn't be suprised to start seeing more Plasma Cannons injected into Dev squads. Maybe not 4, but 1 or two in a squad with Missile Launchers seem viable if they can get good lanes of fire b/c of differences of ranges between the two weapons.

Yeah MMs might end up being so-so on a 5man combat squad. Between run and how much better it is at killing tanks for the cost, it is an interesting consideration now (and if Tu'Shan can grant re-rolls, that 5man squad becomes really tempting).

But devs pay a premium for even the most basic of heavy weaponry. I don't think 5ed (or the coming of combat squads) really changes what one should take -- ML or HBs are still the only really good choices. You don't want to sink a ton of points into non-scoring choices imho.

The Governator Council wrote:

Multi Melta
If I ever, EVER, take this weapon for devastator squad, I will see that Sun rises from the west. It's just that horrible to see this weapon in dev squad. Shortest range than any other heavys and the special "ability" only works at even closer range. I can't imagine having a dev squad that close to a tank. Must be something wrong there. No other comment.

ever tried a squad in a rhino ore razerback ( it has workt for me in the past )

Multimeltas need an 18" Assault range. Either that or a 30" Heavy range. At least they don't blow up.

considering the cost of 10 men and enough heavies to go around....I'd stick with HB's only.

Mainly because I dont like my squads to cost upwards of 250-300 pts.

My question would be, should you use Devastator squads at all?? Or should you use tanks instead?? And bulk up the troop choices to the max??

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Despite the cost I've always liked dev squads with lots of men and 4 lascannons. The only time I've felt slighted when using this was against all-infantry armies like guard or necrons. Even then, if the necrons had even 1 monolith I was happy to have them.

And you should be. With 5th coming and GW declaring [tentatively] that the Monolith can NEVER be destroyed by glancing hits, your missle launchers won't be able to scratch it and it will sit there pulling units out of cc to shoot you again, dropping templates everywhere and doubling the effectiveness of WBB on the most damaged units each turn.

Not fun.

It also means that you have the chance to pop a landraider in one go. While missle launchers may eventually get the job done, you've got to immobilize it and knock off at least three weapons before it's gone. You said you can ignore it, but if it's a crusader or it's carrying assault terminators, do you really want them hitting your lines? Stop it early on.

Most guard armies will also have at least one leman russ in them, as well, and it's great to have the opportunity to pop them more easily as well. I just think the lascannon is worth its weight in gold when it comes to anti-tank, especially in the new edition.

As for the Multi-meltas, I've found more luck with that on a dreadnought [yes, a dreadnought]. If it's only got one shot a turn it might as well be trying to get at tanks, and since I wanted them in assault anyway, getting close was never a problem. I could use a lascannon, but after turn 1 I'll be in range with the MM and it's MUCH cheaper than the T/L lascannon.

The devastator unit’s key advantage over the tactical squad is massed fire. Where the tactical squad totes a single heavy bolter, the devastator unit carries four of the things. This is important to remember because not every weapon gains an advantage from being taken en masse. If there’s no significant advantage to having a second, third and fourth shot, you might as well put the gun in tactical squad and have another scoring unit.

When you fire a heavy bolter at some orks, after you kill a couple you’re likely to think ‘I wish I had three more of that’. So, points depending, four heavy bolters are going to be a decent option for a devastator unit to take.

Similarly, a plasma cannon or a missile launcher are decent options for killing maraines, and when taken in numbers you have the ability to do serious damage to enemy units each turn. So, points depending again, these will likely be decent choices in 5th.

Multi-meltas, however, don’t have this advantage. They’re there to blow tanks up, and are only really in their element at extreme close range. At this range one multi-melta is almost as good as four, as that target tank isn’t going to get any deader with the second, third and fourth hits.

Lascannon are the tough choice. Fired at infantry they’re doing the job of the missile launcher and plasma cannon, but costing more than the missile launcher and doing the job less effectively than the plasma cannon. They have great AT capabilities, though, but do you really need four shots being put into one tank? Better to take tactical units with a lascannon each, giving you more scoring units and the ability to target and destroy multiple enemy tanks.

I think devastator units packing full assortments of heavy bolters, plasma cannons and missile launchers will be seen on the field. I doubt multi-meltas and lascannon will be seen in many devastator units.

Sebster:

Isn't having four Multi-meltas going to make it more likely that the enemy will suffer Multi-melta hits? And won't suffering more Multi-melta hits make those hits more likely to produce a kill? The +1 from the AP1 is nice, but it seems not only like more would be better, but like you're not wasting the bolters of a whole Tactical squad on something you'd need a Multi-Melta for. Plus they're as cheap as Heavy Bolters. That said, three or two can be plenty. If you're using Combat Squads, two Heavy Weapons of the same type per demi-squad seems pretty effective.

While missile launchers are multi purpose and cheaper than las cannons, they are much worse at killing tanks than las cannons are. The reason for this is the change in the damage chart and the effects of glancing hits. Some quick math-hammer.

1 Las Cannon hit vs AV13
50% chance to do nothing
17% chance to glance
33% chance to pen

1 Missile launcher hit vs AV13
66% chance to do nothing
17% chance to glance
17% chance to pen

If you break it down further, your 1 las cannon hit had the following chances at various damage results (these are totals from both glancing and penetrating hits)
Shaken => 14%
Stun => 8%
Weapon Destroyed => 8%
Immobilized => 8%
Destroyed (or explodes) => 11%

The breakdown for missile launchers is:
Shaken => 11%
Stun => 6%
Weapon Destroyed => 6%
Immobilized => 6%
Destroyed (or explodes) => 6%

So las cannons are not only 16% more likely to cause damage in the first place, but their chance of destroying heavy vehicles is approximately double that of the missile launcher.

Now you may decide that the troop killing ability of the missile launcher is worth the trade off, but it is important to see just how much anti tank power you really lose with it.

I wouldn't consider Multimeltas for a devastator squad, but I feel that raiders will become a whole lot more popular so some Multimeltas in you defensive army could work wonders against them.

A dug in Russ or equivalent is even a tough job for 4 Lascannons, so I think for decent anti tank, you should take the whole pack of 4 in a devastator squad. If you consider:
4 shots fired against AV13 in 4+ cover
8/3 (2,666) hits,
4/3 through cover
2/3 hits actually damage the thing...

So maybe it would make sense to send a drop pod with meltas or powerfists over there...

Greets
Schepp himself

Nurglitch wrote:Sebster:

Isn't having four Multi-meltas going to make it more likely that the enemy will suffer Multi-melta hits? And won't suffering more Multi-melta hits make those hits more likely to produce a kill? The +1 from the AP1 is nice, but it seems not only like more would be better, but like you're not wasting the bolters of a whole Tactical squad on something you'd need a Multi-Melta for. Plus they're as cheap as Heavy Bolters. That said, three or two can be plenty. If you're using Combat Squads, two Heavy Weapons of the same type per demi-squad seems pretty effective.

Every time you mass heavy weapons of the same type overkill becomes a possibility. When you take four heavy bolters and fire at some fire warriors there’s a chance you’ll inflict more casualties than they have tau. To the extent that that happens, you’re wasting points on the extra heavy weapons. But, with heavy bolters that chance is fairly remote, provided the enemy is taking unit with more than 5 or 6 mean. As such, heavy bolters tend to serve well when taken in numbers in a devastator squad.

Similarly, groups of four missile launchers and four plasma cannons are unlikely to suffer much overkill when firing at MEQs. But when you start looking taking multiple heavy weapons to serve an AT role, overkill becomes a serious issue. For every lascannon after the first, there’s an increasing chance a previous shot already killed the tank and subsequent shots are wasted.

To use Phoenix’ numbers, the first lascannon has an 11% chance of knocking the tank out. This means there’s an 11% chance the second shot is completely unnecessary. When you look at a third shot, there’s a 21% chance the second shot in unnecessary. When you look at a third shot, there’s a 37% chance you’ve already blown the target to kingdom come. And that’s without considering that even if you haven’t destroyed the target with previous shots you’ve likely destroyed the main gun, immobilised it and stunned it – making further AT attacks less valuable.

Thinking about it, though, I was flawed in thinking in terms of an ‘all or nothing’ approach to heavy weapons. You can take just two lascannon or multi-meltas, you keep the cost down and don’t suffer so much from overkill.

I was also working on the logic of 4th ed, where overkill was a bigger problem because tanks were so much easier to kill. Running through the maths of 5th ed briefly, the risk of overkill is greatly reduced. In 4th ed it was madness to mass AT units in together and force them to fire at the same target because the first shot was very likely to destroy the target. Looking at the maths in 5th though, that chance, while still significant, isn’t as dominant.

That said, I’ll still stand by the argument that if you’re going to have both AP weapons (heavy bolters, plasma cannon) and AT weapons (lascannon) split between devastator and tactical units, better to group the



And yeah, wasting the bolters in a tactical squad by firing the multi-melta at a tank is a problem. But that’s an argument against taking multi-meltas in tactical squads, it isn’t an argument for taking them in devastator squads.

Wow, never thought the thread would go along. Thx for all that have contributed. That gives me lots of ideas of what should I do.

Point taken is that overkill w/ AT heavy weapons can be a problem, but there's almost not that many overkill with AP weaponry.

@ winterman and deadshane1:

I absolutely agree with you guyz of not dumping points too much in a non-scoring unit.

@ chappy p:

Considering that tanks will be thougher, although they become so bad (str 4 defensive weapon, anyone?), I'd take them to make them into a turret w/ AT weaponry, ex: non-moving pred anihillator w/ las-sponson, unless it's very necessary to move it.

I would say that devastators would be suited more for AP units.

@ spellbound:

That's a very true point, but if we have killed sufficient number of necrons, lots of those WBB will fail. True that Monolith pushes WBB to twice its effectiveness, but I'd try to kill more necrons, as if he got no necrons = phase out. Besides, w/ templates from lith, 4HB dev squad is a lot better cost to pay than 4Las dev squad.

@Phoenix:
Thx for the mathammer. It really shows how Las is better for AT than ML, but how about if we consider point cost into play? don't you almost get 2 ML for 1 Las? How will the mathammer change?

@ Schepp:

Thx for the mathammer. About the drop pod idea, better just get Meltagun and combi-melta. PF won't do because you can't charge after DS and might ended up got tied in close combat with another unit.

@ sebster:

I never really consider much about the overkill before, therefor that really helps.

Conclusion (so far):

Since devastator is costly enough as it is, it should be taken very carefully how much is each player's limit on the unit, and how it is equipped. Kill enough with consideration of not overkill too much, while maintaining enough number to kill stuff.

3Heavys in an 8-man squad or 4Heavys in a 10-man squad. What to take for the heavys is every player's own preferences. Just remember not too overkill, but kill enough.

FOR THE EMPEROR!!!

Dont forget, with combat squads, you can split your 10 man squad and have 2 weapons in each combat squad! That may allow for some better diversification of weapons.

2 lascannons in one combat squad and 2 heavy bolters in another for example.

@ whitedragon:

Is that rumor true, that you can split up everything now? Like BA and DA ?

The Governator Council wrote:@Phoenix:
Thx for the mathammer. It really shows how Las is better for AT than ML, but how about if we consider point cost into play? don't you almost get 2 ML for 1 Las? How will the mathammer change?

The problem with looking at it like that is that it doesn't really work out right. While it costs X points to get a las cannon (I don't know the exact prices so bare with me here) and Y for a missile launcher where X=2*Y (hope you've all had algebra) you have to consider the platform for the weapons. Unless you are comparing a 10 man devistator squad with 2 las cannons to a 10 man devistator squad with 4 missile launchers, the points don't break down that simply. If you want to really compare them fairly you have to price a 10 man devistator with 4 las cannons against a 10 man squad with 4 missile launchers. At that point the price difference is no where near as much. However, the benifit of the las cannons vs the missile launchers is only in their offensive ability (AP2 rather than 3, and S9 rather than 8) so the squad doesn't benifit in any other way from the points spent. Again it starts to get into the realm where math-hammer breaks down.

If you want to try to compare them, you could take the total % of each squads tank kill likelyhood (44% for las cannons and 24% for missile launchers) and divide it by the squads' total point cost. That would give you an anti tank power per point ratio number that you could use for a basis of comparison I guess.

@ sebster:
You raise a very good point. My prefrence is to lean a bit more towards overkill rather than underkill but you certainly don't want to go overboard on the overkill since it detracts from the power of the rest of your army.