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So I am contemplating 40k, with the release of the rulebook into my hands to peruse, re-read completely, twice, I can dig up what will be, IMO, the ultimate Ork army.

This is my first crack at it, having looked the rulebook over fairly well in local shops:

HQ
Big Mek - 85
KFF

Big Mek - 85
KFF

Troops
25 Slugga Boyz - 190
PK Nob w/ Bosspole

25 Slugga Boyz - 190
PK Nob w/ Bosspole

30 Shoota Boyz - 250
3 Rokkits, PK Nob w/ Bosspole

30 Shoota Boyz - 250
3 Rokkits, PK Nob w/ Bosspole

30 Shoota Boyz - 250
3 Rokkits, PK Nob w/ Bosspole

Heavy
3 Killa Kanz - 150
Rokkits

3 Killa Kanz - 150
Rokkits

3 Killa Kanz - 150
Rokkits

1750

The army has two lines of attack, one half with a Slugga Mob & Mek behind the Kanz, just running the whole time unless situations dictate that I stop and fire my rokkits at something. The thought of needing to do that in order to stop some kind of vehicle is decent enough where I want to spend the 90 Points on Rokkits on the Kanz. Without that, the Slugga Mobz go to 30 Strong and I buy more special weapons.

The other half of the army is the Shootas behind the other slugga mob arranged in a set of 3 columns behind the screening slugga unit. If you want to shoot at the shootas, you're giving them 4+ Cover. The Sluggas get Cover from the KFF Mek who is leading up the middle shoota squad, giving KFF saves as needed to the rest of the Boyz should the screen fail or I need something late game.

And yes, I realize I'm breaking my cardinal rule about "Always Shoota Boyz" here, but this is mainly due to the fact that I can get some use out of the 70+ Slugga Boyz I already have built & painted from my Ork army from the last codex.

No comments at all? :(

This list looks pretty solid. I wonder if the points and HQ slots for the Meks could be better spent by running a unit of grots as a screen and putting a warphead or boss.

Well I needed a minimum of one big Mek otherwise the Kanz get no cover saves.

As far as the other Mek, he's there to give my screen a save. I've played against a lot of hard armies with the horde in 4th Edition and I've seen enough firepower to wipe a mob or two down a turn.

Without the Mek, you get a turn of your Grot Screen getting obliterated by every gun in your opponents army, and then you start getting your mobz shot without getting cover saves.

Right now, I'm trying to think if I should swap stuff out for Kommandos or something that can disrupt heavy enemy shooting. I do think that Kanz+Horde means trouble for a ton of opponents though, which makes me want to keep it.

I think it's a great list if you're playing someone loaded to fight MEQ. It's not so great if they're ready to face an ork horde. A couple whirlwind templates will ruin your day. Or mech sisters with flamers. IG tanks. etc.

I'm looking to build a new ork horde for fifth (I played horde orks in third, back when it wasn't cool, and sold the army because my painting has improved). Walking a big horde across the board always seems to look better on paper than in practice. It's certainly better now than in third, but with variable run moves, terrain, etc., I don't know if the greentide will work.

I'm expecting the metagame to switch from MEQ to GEQ (or even OEQ), and that will affect the competitive tourney builds. Which may force Ork players to counter by taking stuff that is either fast, sneaky, or long-ranged. It also depends how much terrain (and LOS-blocking terrain) gets used, and I haven't seen fifth edition rulebook to know if they give any solid recommendations.

So, to finish a long, rambling post. I don't know how good the army would be. I think it will be at least alright, and probably top-tier vs. armies designed to fight MEQ. But for armies designed to fight OEQ, you might get wiped off the board.

Movement and time are going to be the two factors that I am going to chim in about.

The only thing I would say to watch out for are combat sqauds as they could be your down fall. 30 men nocking down five men only to find them selves out in the open with nothing but a little wind up their skirts.

I'm considering the problems of lists designed to take Orks out.

IG rip this a new one, half-mech Tau are a nightmare if they're built the way I have been thinking about them (3 Hammerheads, Marker lights).

Marines I'm not that overly concerned about, probably because it's hard to hide 3 Whirlwinds in 5th ed, unless a LOT of blocking LOS terrain becomes the norm. If you can reliably hide them like you can expect to in 4th, then 3 Whirlwind Marines are a serious army to contend with (in general, not just for this list).

Sisters, believe it or not are a force I'm not too concerned with. If it's horde sisters then I out range them shooting wise, and they have to deal with everything being a combat threat. If I space the Boyz Mobz out right, I just build the buffer of Boyz up front to die, and then the following squads Waaagh up and get into CC and tear house.

Mech Sisters have problems, you just have to advance with the front most horde in a sparse formation, building the meat-shield around the rest of the Boyz. Sisters in Rhinos means a lot less Sisters. They can nuke a squad, but they may only kill 18 or so, and 12 Boyz are still fearless and will kill the sisters between shooting and assault.

Also, Exorcists will struggle to really put a dent on 9 Kanz with 4+ Cover saves all the time due to the big mek.

Chaos with templates and a Lash (or two) are also problems.

I'm trying to consider what to mix up with this. I'm considering Kommandos with or without snikrot, maybe dropping some Kanz down too.

Lootas have the appeal of long ranged support, but I still don't know how much I like them in 5th to be honest.

EDIT:

And as far as movment goes, I'm getting GF9 Movement Trays for this. They can supposedly cut them however you want, so I will buy a few, most likely with the holes cut to exactly 2" apart, or close to it. I would need to verify with Dave Taylor and co at GW to make sure this is acceptable for use at the GT's though.

I figure that should help a TON with templates and movement issues of the horde.

9 Kans? Really?
You're giving your opponent's antitank a lot to shoot at there.
I suppose the KFF would help protect them, but still, I'd be very nervous. To my mind, the Kommandos or Stormboys would be a better buy- up your bodycount and get some fast, hard hitting units to help you to take down enemy template spewers.
Horde is looking better to me now, because it's so damn hard to protect our now slower moving trukks with the new LOS rules.
Would you consider Lootas?
I think the core choices (Sluggas and Shootas) are good, and the dual meks is a good HQ choice. I'm not sold on the Kans, though of course 9 Kans makes for some fun modelling and theme bits, especially with the Meks.
Edit: Sorry, I missed your comment on Lootas not being as good in 5th.

Why do you think that? Is it the more survivable vehicles or something else?

Ooo, another argument against kans- Heavies give more kill points than elites!

until the sisters shoot the big mek with the exorcists instead....

Believe me tho 9 is alot of kans but 3 is alot of exorcists.

Its a good list tho. If you want you can drive up from cherry hill to play my mech sisters army to test this idea at the gamers realm. (I'm up in New Brunswick and thats half way down for me)

all units give 1 KP

30boys = 1kp
1 boss = 1kp
1 buggy = 1 kp
1 kan =1kp

but the three kans gives 3 KPs tho since there are 3 of them

Not true Boss - in the final 5th Ed Rules all units give up 1 Kill Point, doesn't matter where in the FoC they come from.

9 Kans are a target, but there's too many targets for most solid anti-tank to do serious work to. Kanz run now, and they all get 4+ Cover saves all the time from the Big Mek that is running right behind them in one of the units of 25 Slugga Boyz.

For example, 4 Missile Launcher shots at BS4 only have an 88% chance of doing damage to ONE Kan Mob they shoot at. That's some serious redundancy.

So against most opponents I can run up and put pressure on them from 9 Kanz AND have the horde running at them as well.

Oh okay. I haven't read the new book yet and hadn't seen much discussion of kill points changing. Thanks!

frgsinwntr wrote:all units give 1 KP

30boys = 1kp
1 boss = 1kp
1 buggy = 1 kp
1 kan =1kp

but the three kans gives 3 KPs tho since there are 3 of them

Each unit of Kanz gives 1 KP, so you need to kill all 3 to get it.

My best friend who I started gaming with all those years ago started the game with Sisters, I started with Orks. We've played hundreds of games over the years, enough to the point where I can run a Mech Sisters army as if it were my own.

Also, the Mek's are hiding in units of 30 Boyz. The one for the horde is behind the Slugga Screen. The one for the Kanz is in a unit of 25 Boyz, behind the Kan Screen.

Run the numbers on exorcists shooting Kanz w/ 4+ Saves, even if you roll a 6 for your number of shots you're still looking at having to roll very well to get 2 rolls on the damage table vs. the squadron. The average is 1.33 shots getting through having to hit, glance/pen, and then get through the 4+ Cover save.

Still, I'm always up for going around and meeting people at shops. If you have some friends who would be interested in a meetup too then we could definitely organize something at some point - there are a lot of guys from the GW Echelon Village store I game at who have traveled around to get games against new people.

come on up for the 40k tourny on the 19th

I'm going to need to reread the KPs section of the 3rd book, but I thought it said something about vehicle squads

Orks were my first army and I've played them for like 7 years sisters my third army I am putting together for the GT. It would be a very tough game since we both know each others armies

my aim SN is frgsinwntr also if you want to schedule a game.... being a teacher I am free most of this summer to even come down to the village

Math out of excel for Exos vs kans

exo vs kans
Shots/ Hits/ chance to Dmg/ glance/ pen
1/ 0.666666666/ 0.4444444/ 0.1111111/ 0.3333333
2/ 1.333333332/ 0.888888799/ 0.2222222/ 0.666666599
3/ 1.999999998/ 1.333333199/ 0.3333333/ 0.999999899
4/ 2.666666664/ 1.777777598/ 0.4444444/ 1.333333199
5/ 3.33333333/ 2.222221998/ 0.555555499/ 1.666666498
6/ 3.999999996/ 2.666666397/ 0.666666599/ 1.999999798

math shows that there is a very good chance a 1-2 kans will die each turn to an Exo without cover. With the cover save half as many will.

I think Lootas still have a place, I just don't know what it is. Sure, they're not as good in some ways, but they have better lines of sight too. I think they're a consideration for tourney armies to deal with mechanized lists, which I think we'll see more of in the metagame.

Forgot about hiding whirlwinds. Still, they'll put a dent in you for a turn or two until you're in range. And, if SM get the 'ignore cover save' ammo like DA, that'll hurt even more.

I'm not sold on kommandoes. Snikrot is really pricey, but for eliminating the randomness of where they arrive, maybe worth it. Do you go with rokkits or burnas? I see the appeal of burnas, but they lost the extra d6 for armor pen (iirc), and rokkits have some range.

I think orks are going to work well if most of the army is the same 'speed'. They're either all fast and get across the board quickly, so fewer boyz but fewer rounds being shot up, or slow and walk across as a wave and have enough boyz to whether the storm. Maybe that's just my experience with other games, and I can see where having a few 'flanking' units is important even with a footslogging horde.

Of course, a lot also depends on how the tourney-scene terrain reacts. If it doesn't change, then the boards are virtually wide open. If there's more buildings, you can hide some trukks, etc.

dietrich wrote:I think Lootas still have a place, I just don't know what it is. Sure, they're not as good in some ways, but they have better lines of sight too. I think they're a consideration for tourney armies to deal with mechanized lists, which I think we'll see more of in the metagame.

Forgot about hiding whirlwinds. Still, they'll put a dent in you for a turn or two until you're in range. And, if SM get the 'ignore cover save' ammo like DA, that'll hurt even more.

I'm not sold on kommandoes. Snikrot is really pricey, but for eliminating the randomness of where they arrive, maybe worth it. Do you go with rokkits or burnas? I see the appeal of burnas, but they lost the extra d6 for armor pen (iirc), and rokkits have some range.

I think orks are going to work well if most of the army is the same 'speed'. They're either all fast and get across the board quickly, so fewer boyz but fewer rounds being shot up, or slow and walk across as a wave and have enough boyz to whether the storm. Maybe that's just my experience with other games, and I can see where having a few 'flanking' units is important even with a footslogging horde.

Of course, a lot also depends on how the tourney-scene terrain reacts. If it doesn't change, then the boards are virtually wide open. If there's more buildings, you can hide some trukks, etc.

Lootas will generally come in mobs of 12 - 15. With units like SM scouts (and their rumored rules) or any kind of infiltrator, you're now looking at losing 200+ points very easily from turn 2 onward as your horde progresses forward.

I just don't see it being that great, though they do give you a lot of help vs. other armies, given increased blast template rules, they're 180+ points of easy to get rid of target.

Kommandos get Burnas I think. Too useful not to take and they're hard to get elsewhere. Especially if you take Snikrot instead of a normal squad. Still I see arguments for not taking them as they are expensive as all get out now and push a full Mob of Kommando's + mandatory PK Nob w/ Bosspole over the 200 point mark.

I look at it as either you take Snkirot and live without the PK, but that's more than a Boyz mob in cost, or you can take two units w/o him (to help alleviate the randomness problem). Of course you're looking at decreasing your mainline mobs now, with non-scoring Elites, which is a problem for anything that doesn't involve "more Boyz".

On one hand, I see this as kind of good. While some may see horde Orks as unbeatable, there are a number of easy counter armies to this, but at the same time, as an Ork player, I was hoping for a bit more brokeness given all the doom and gloom I've been reading about 5th Ed and Orks.

What's holding the objective in your zone while the horde moves forward? Do you have some shootas lag towards the back?

I'm wondering if two units of 20+ grotz are worth it. They come in at 80-107 points (assuming you don't go to thirty and get the third runtherd), have 30+ wounds, and can hold objectives. Sure, they're as delicate as 400 year old porcelain, but for 200 points, you could have two big mobs of objective holders. They'll go away with dedicated firepower, but then they're not shooting at boyz.

As far as Lootas, it's probably a situation where if you take lootas and something else that is a long range threat (more lootas, cannons, whatever), you get 1-2 rounds out of both units, and hopefully a couple more turns out of one of them. If you deploy near the center, SM scouts aren't a huge threat. Maybe it's just me, but outflanking scouts don't scare that much. They'll come out, shoot up a unit, and probably get gunned down. They have a 12-inch charge range (move+charge) or 18 inch shooting (move +rapid fire).

The rumor for the new SM scouts is they get an additional "scout move" after they come on any table edge.

Probably a wishlist thing, but it gives them an 18" charge range if true.

And Scouts armed with BP+CCW will beat the piss out of the Lootas.

Also, 100 - 200 points to spend on Grots seems like too much to me. Points are tight as it is, since Boyz do die in droves. I'd rather spend 120 points on 20 Shootas to sit back and camp an objective to win than anything else.

Depending on the mission, I may have to hang a unit back, a lot depends on what I'm fighting against. Also I will do my best to make sure most objective markers that I place are in the center of the board where it's most advantageous for me.

My PDF of the Ork codex says that the KFF gives a cover save of 5+. In this thread, you've said 4+. Is this an error in the PDF, or do you expect this to be changed in a FAQ, or what?

The KFF gives the normal boys a 5+ save. Alright so far.
However, the boys are kept behind the kans, which grants them a 4+ save.
The KANS on the other hand count as obscured due to the KFF and get a 4+ save for that.
greets!

Kommandos would be something to look into as it gives your army some what of a chance to change direction if needed. As it is now your army is one direction and with the kommandos you can change that up when they show up. I would test play it and see how many you might need over all. Its not that your looking to get a whole sqaud but a unit to preform a task to help your army as a whole.

Infiltrate to break a tank that is wacking your army silly.

Infiltrate to support a squad that has been almost wiped out.

Only way to know is to test it out a few times to see what all your need for the unit of Kommandos.

Thinking about it here's what makes me want to take Kommandos and what keeps me from wanting to use them.

Take:
The units primary job will be the ability to come onto the board, probably use the Waaagh, and assault a Tank and/or a Squad that is shooting my advancing horde.

Not Take:
Expensive.
They will enter on a table edge, which will be the one I do not want 1/3 of the time.
They will charge a unit, probably kill it, and then die from being shot in the subsequent turn.


Now one thing that can probably fill the same roll is Deth Koptas.

They can come on via a short table edge just like the Kommandos, they move 12, so don't need a Waaagh to reliably hit things midway up the table. They can take a Power Klaw equivalent which will do plenty of damage on a tanks rear armor.
I can also take Twin Linked Rokkits to shoot the target on my way in.
They can reliably take down most fire-support squads, or at least tie them up.