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I have a real problem with the idea that a marine and a nid have the same chance to hit a target with a blast weapon. For that matter the 1 in 3 chance of actually hitting your target is insanely low and the rule about scatter takes BS into too little a significance. a 15 pt marine with BS4 gets one inch close to the actual target than a 6 pt guardsman and a miss in general is as good as a mile. On average, a marine will scatter 4 inches off target. If this is a plasm cannon, the most common thing, that puts the template completely off the target model. And now look at tanks like lemans with BS3. move or not, they always scatter 2d6-3. that's so much of a scatter (compaired to the only 1d6) that a leman will almost never hit. And they kept the crap rule about the 1/2 str if not over the hole.

Am I reading this wrong or can someone please convince me this is a good thing?

i dont care for it a lot now either but at least the template only has to slightly touch a model to effect it so when it does land it has a better chance of hiting more targets.
no more 4+ for partials.

armus wrote:I have a real problem with the idea that a marine and a nid have the same chance to hit a target with a blast weapon. For that matter the 1 in 3 chance of actually hitting your target is insanely low and the rule about scatter takes BS into too little a significance. a 15 pt marine with BS4 gets one inch close to the actual target than a 6 pt guardsman and a miss in general is as good as a mile. On average, a marine will scatter 4 inches off target. If this is a plasm cannon, the most common thing, that puts the template completely off the target model. And now look at tanks like lemans with BS3. move or not, they always scatter 2d6-3. that's so much of a scatter (compaired to the only 1d6) that a leman will almost never hit. And they kept the crap rule about the 1/2 str if not over the hole.

Am I reading this wrong or can someone please convince me this is a good thing?

75% of the time, a marine will put a blast marker within two inches of his target. Not bad, I say.

BS4 are loosing out abit when compared to lower BS templates. They are still about as accurate as they used to be, but not by such a big margin as they used to.

There's a bit more to this then mentioned so far

Marine example

In 4ed
BS4 hits 2/3 of the time (66.67%)
In 5ed
Scatter dice hit 1/3 of the time + BS4 scatters 0" 1/9 of the time = hits 4/9 of the time (44.44%). Average scatter is 3.73" and most common scatter result is 3".

However there is some other things to consider.

-The no more partials is a big change, such that when you hit the effectivenes goes up by quite a bit over 4ed and also when you scatter it isn't as bad.

-You pretty much won't fail to hit something when facing a horde army, large units or a castled opponent, especially if they have spread out to minimize damage from blasts. This is a big boost compared to 4ed and helps define blast weapons as anti horde.

Now for battle cannons

In 4ed
Stationary hits 1/3 and scatters average of 3.5" (no common scatter result, each is just as possible)
Moving hits 1/3 and scatters average of 4.47" (most common scatter is 6")

In 5ed (assume BS3)
Moving or stationary scatter dice hits 1/3 and scatters 0" 1/18 = hits 7/18 (38.89%) and average non 0 scatter of ~4.39" (most common scatter is 4").

So hits a bit more often overall in 5ed, scatters a bit more when stationary but about as much when moving. Also for moving you'd see a 6" scatter in 4ed slightly more then you'd see 6,7,8 or 9 combined (11/36 versus 10/33). Yes there's a chance you will scatter more then is possible in 4ed, but overall its not all doom and gloom IMHO. All this with afore mentioned no partials and I'm not seeing any real issue with battle cannons.

Now indirect barrage is a whole nother thing. Indirect is much worse in 5ed, cause you get no BS mod so scatter 2d6 is harsh. The only positive is the chance of shooting something and it not getting a cover save via obscured LOS.

Hope that helps.

I think it should have been ALWAYS scatter, and minus your BSx2. Marines would, on average, hit on target [8 or less], guard slightly less than average [6 or less], orks quite less [only on 4 or less]. But each suffered from the really high rolls.

While that leads to blasts being almost too accurate, I think it would reflect BS more effectively - orks only occasionally landing on target, but still getting "kinda close" often. I mean on an average roll of 7 the orks would have scattered 3". Still enough to hit a unit depending on the angle of scatter, but not often spot on.

Spellbound wrote:I think it should have been ALWAYS scatter, and minus your BSx2. Marines would, on average, hit on target [8 or less], guard slightly less than average [6 or less], orks quite less [only on 4 or less]. But each suffered from the really high rolls.

While that leads to blasts being almost too accurate, I think it would reflect BS more effectively - orks only occasionally landing on target, but still getting "kinda close" often. I mean on an average roll of 7 the orks would have scattered 3". Still enough to hit a unit depending on the angle of scatter, but not often spot on.

And whatabout the phat hq with his big gun and bs 5 or 6? he almost misses al the time...

How many HQs can fire blast weapons? And if they happen to be BS5 or 6, SHOULDN'T they hit almost every time?

it would just have to be reflected in their points costs.

if you think blast weapons suck, eventually you'll play someone that spams plasma cannon...

...then youll change your mind.

I need to go back and read the book because a GW rep said that if you do not move with the Russ its 1d6-bs. If you do move then its 2d6-bs. If the case is 2d6-bs then I better being seeing a huge point drop in LRBT because for this crap. I did not take the time to build an IG army to watch every shoot from my tank miss while other armies kick the crap out of my tanks with direct fire!

Not to off topic but somebody chimmed in with Ordanance of which is not blast. Two different words here of which somebody could clear up if they had the book.


As far as blast goes yes 2d6-BS sucks for marines imo though. My first 5th game was last night and yes I did hit a few other things because the blast drifted. The fact of the matter was that I was LUCKY in that other things happen to be around. I was also lucky that it did not scatter more than a few inchs whiched helped over all minus BS. I can see the logical side but Marines have the better BS and should have a better chance than guard at putting a frag shoot were they want it to be placed. two cents spent

Tarval wrote: I can see the logical side but Marines have the better BS and should have a better chance than guard at putting a frag shoot were they want it to be placed. two cents spent

And mathematicly, they do indeed have a better chance to hit. If they "miss", they still have a one in six chance of not deviating, where as guard are forced to deal with a 1 in 12 chance of hitting if they "miss". That's just math.

Personally i like what it does for the dynamics of the game (It reminds me of 1st edition)

The odds of directly hitting your TARGET may be less that's true...
but i think the odds of hitting SOMETHING will be better (if you target the right unit/model)

So i'm not sure that the pure mathhammer outlook is really fair since it can't give me the odds of it deviating into a different unit
or
how the dispersal of the current unit in combination with the model i target, affects the odds of hitting a model if the shot deviated

To get specific though: this greatly affects Guard Tactics (IMHO)

1. It gives me a reason to buy a grenade launcher (My guard units may actually buy one instead of plasma/melta guns)

The Guard BS stinks anyhow and with partials there was never a convincing reason to buy Grenade Launchers,
But a small Special Weapons squad loaded with Grenade Launchers would be Cheap and fairly effective in hitting SOMETHING
Plus there is a big coolness factor of lobbing a bunch of grenades into a Boyz mob

As Winterman pointed out, the odds of hitting your target with a marine frag missile went from 66% down to 44% (33% chance to not scatter + 11.1% chance to roll 4 or less on 2d6). However, what I think is more important is looking at your odds of missing.

In 4th, marines missed 33% of the time, end of story. But how often do they miss in 5th. Well the answer isn't simple but lets at least try to look at it. First off, scatter happens 66% of the time. So lets break this down into how much you scatter and how often.

Marines fireing frag missiles in 5th eidtion

Roll at hit on the scatter die => 33% of the time
Scatter 0" => 11.1% of the time
Scatter 1" => 7.4% of the time
Scatter 2" => 9.3% of the time
Scatter 3" => 11.1% of the time
Scatter 4" => 9.3% of the time
Scatter 5" => 7.4% of the time
Scatter 6" => 5.6% of the time
Scatter 7" => 3.7% of the time
Scatter 8" => 1.9% of the time

So depending on what results in nothing being hit really determines what is actually a miss. Obviously scattering 0-1 inch will mean you still hit your original target (although maybe not all the secondary targets around it). If you are shooting at the middile of a squad, scattering 2-4 inches will also probably result in still hitting something and there is a grand total of 81.5% of scattering 4" or less. After that, chances of there being anything still in range start to really drop so you probably don't want to really consider the 5"+ range as hitting, but depending on direction rolled and how units are spread out may mean that some of these end up hitting as well. So all in all, it looks like that the new rules will actualy lead to an increase in frag (and other blast weapon) hits rather than a reduction.

Not to off topic but somebody chimmed in with Ordanance of which is not blast. Two different words here of which somebody could clear up if they had the book.

Have access to the book. There is no real difference between ordnance and blast as far as hit and scatter. The only difference is the affect shooting ord has on the tank using it (only weapon that can be fired) and when shooting ord at vehicles (roll 2d6 and pick highest for pen roll).

HTH

If this is the case on frag why not do this with the rest of the weapon in the game. I mean if I go and fire a krak missle, its still going to land someplace on the board. Its not like its going to keep going and going and going off the board?

As far as Ordanance goes I need to look that up. That could cause a major riff in my planning for the GT.

Phoenix wrote:As Winterman pointed out, the odds of hitting your target with a marine frag missile went from 66% down to 44% (33% chance to not scatter + 11.1% chance to roll 4 or less on 2d6).....

Marines fireing frag missiles in 5th eidtion

Roll at hit on the scatter die => 33% of the time
Scatter 0" => 16.7% of the time
Scatter 1" => 7.4% of the time....

You have contradictory stats here.

Also a 1" scatter is effectively a hit, a 2" scatter will hit the designated target if the base size is medium. A 3" scatter will still hit a large base, that takes us up to 7's.

Orlanth wrote:

Phoenix wrote:As Winterman pointed out, the odds of hitting your target with a marine frag missile went from 66% down to 44% (33% chance to not scatter + 11.1% chance to roll 4 or less on 2d6).....

Marines fireing frag missiles in 5th eidtion

Roll at hit on the scatter die => 33% of the time
Scatter 0" => 16.7% of the time
Scatter 1" => 7.4% of the time....

You have contradictory stats here.

Also a 1" scatter is effectively a hit, a 2" scatter will hit the designated target if the base size is medium. A 3" scatter will still hit a large base, that takes us up to 7's.

Even I read the whole post better than that.

Regwon wrote:if you think blast weapons suck, eventually you'll play someone that spams plasma cannon...

...then youll change your mind.

fire prism? surely this is now god 60" ranged gun that can't really miss (large blast). Also eldar guardians with a missile launcher is a must. infact its a defencive weapon (fired as plama) so it'd be great on a wave serpent, falcon or vyper ... it might scatter? but chances of missing everything are low

Tarval wrote:I need to go back and read the book because a GW rep said that if you do not move with the Russ its 1d6-bs. If you do move then its 2d6-bs. If the case is 2d6-bs then I better being seeing a huge point drop in LRBT because for this crap. I did not take the time to build an IG army to watch every shoot from my tank miss while other armies kick the crap out of my tanks with direct fire!

Not to off topic but somebody chimmed in with Ordanance of which is not blast. Two different words here of which somebody could clear up if they had the book.


As far as blast goes yes 2d6-BS sucks for marines imo though. My first 5th game was last night and yes I did hit a few other things because the blast drifted. The fact of the matter was that I was LUCKY in that other things happen to be around. I was also lucky that it did not scatter more than a few inchs whiched helped over all minus BS. I can see the logical side but Marines have the better BS and should have a better chance than guard at putting a frag shoot were they want it to be placed. two cents spent

Previously it scattered 1D6. Now it scatters 2D6 – BS. Average roll on a D6 is 3.5, so by the old rules the scatter was 3.5” on average. By the new rules the average scatter for imperial guard is 4”, for marines it’s 3” – you’re either worse off by half an inch or better off by the same. When you consider there’s no more partials, in general blast weapons have received a significant leg up.

Sounds like you had some bad luck in your game, but that doesn’t mean blast or ordnance weapons are worse off, it just means that it’s a bad idea to judge something from the results of a single game.

Previously it scattered 1D6. Now it scatters 2D6 – BS. Average roll on a D6 is 3.5, so by the old rules the scatter was 3.5” on average. By the new rules the average scatter for imperial guard is 4”, for marines it’s 3” – you’re either worse off by half an inch or better off by the same. When you consider there’s no more partials, in general blast weapons have received a significant leg up.

Sounds like you had some bad luck in your game, but that doesn’t mean blast or ordnance weapons are worse off, it just means that it’s a bad idea to judge something from the results of a single game.

"Average" here doesn't convey the whole picture, as the possible range of scatters has increased rather dramatically.

And the poor Basilisk....

kirsanth wrote:
Even I read the whole post better than that.

I did read the whole post. Besides:

33%+16.7% =/= 44%

Orlanth wrote:

Phoenix wrote:As Winterman pointed out, the odds of hitting your target with a marine frag missile went from 66% down to 44% (33% chance to not scatter + 11.1% chance to roll 4 or less on 2d6).....

Marines fireing frag missiles in 5th eidtion

Roll at hit on the scatter die => 33% of the time
Scatter 0" => 16.7% of the time
Scatter 1" => 7.4% of the time....

You have contradictory stats here.

My bad, messed up one number. There is a 16.7% chance that anything that does scatter will scatter 0", however that number doesn't take into account the fact that 33% of shots just hit with no scatter. The over all chance that something will scatter and scatter 0" is 11.1%. I've fixed it in the orignal post. Thanks for pointing out the mistake. The other numbers are accurate though.

What really matters when firing allt these blasts is what you are shooting at. Against a "horde" they will as good as never miss and then they are really worth it. As tankhunting from a single prism for example esp. against a "small" vechile they are alot worse off.

TBH it sounds like you're trying to go tank hunting with a blast weapon. What seems to be forgotten is that blast weapons like their bigger cousins ordanance weapons are used for one main purpose: to reduce troop sizes that you have to face. They're not meant to be exact firing gun platforms, otherwise they'd be a stationary weapon that you can't move.

Now I don't know how many of you have actually (I mean in real life) have fired a blast type weapon, ie. M203, AT4, MK19 or something similiar. I have and I'll tell you right now while they can be accurate as all get out. They can be just as inaccurate. You can fire to short, to long, off target. But the main reason to using them is to:
1. Keep the enemies head down so your smaller arms fire infantry men can do the more precise shooting.
2. Kill anything unlucky enough to be caught in the fire path and reduce the enemy count.
3. Be a general annoinance to any commander thats trying to push his troops up on you.
4. Its best used against horde type armies, where its scatter effect will most likely hit something. ie 'Nids / Orks.

I don't know how many of you actually subscribe to White Dwarf. I do and when they came out with last months issue about the new 5 edition rules and gave some battle reps with them using the new rules, one thing stood out above all else. They wanted you to be more drawn into the combat and no so much worried about the rolling of dice and just cutting down your opponent. They designed the new rules with the thought of having fun and also a little realism brought to the board. If you think about your army choices for fighting other armies, one selection type isn't going to work best against all armies and that's what I see them emphazing quite a bit with these rules. Taking alot of indirect fire platforms against an enemy that doesn't swarm you like Space Marines, or Necrons is going to give you a problem because you've geared your army towards a swarm style army. So what they've effectivly done is made you have to change your force selection to reflect the style of army you're about to fight. This also gives more variety on the table top instead of just seeing the same things over and over again. As you have to adjust for the different types/styles of armies that you might possibly face.

This is just my 2 cents from the actual real life side looking in on the world of table top gaming. I've been playing since 3rd Edition and I've seen the changes through these editions and its been alot of fun comparing and contrasting. But with 5th edition it looks to me like they're trying to bring it back around to being fun even in competition and also a little more realistic to the types of selections that you make when fighting an army. Making your selection also a vital roll and not just how much fire power you can throw on the table in the points allowed.

Interesting Note on blast weapons as well:

The hole doesn't have to be centered over a model any more (even-non-vehicle models)
In 4th, i believe it had to be "Centered" on a model, but now as long as the hole is over the target model base you can position it anywhere.

(there is a diagram in the blast section of the book that clearly shows a non-centered blast marker)

this is great for creatures on a Large Bases (e.g. swarms) because before when you had to center the blast marker, you could only really get one hit if the unit coherency is right at the 2" limit.

But now i think you'll be able to pick up an extra hit or 2 against targets with a larger bases

Delduwath wrote:The hole doesn't have to be centered over a model any more (even-non-vehicle models)
In 4th, i believe it had to be "Centered" on a model, but now as long as the hole is over the target model base you can position it anywhere.

Actually that's the same as 4th. In 4th the center hole had to be placed over the target model. It did not have to be centered over the target model but it did have to be entirely over the base. For infantry purposes this ment you had the slightest bit of wiggle room (mostly insignificant) but for vehicles, it made a huge difference.

Janthkin wrote:"Average" here doesn't convey the whole picture, as the possible range of scatters has increased rather dramatically.

And the poor Basilisk....

Yeah, std dev increases slightly. It's possible to map out the full range of deviations with the probability of each, but it's a largely academic exercise given how much scatter is dependant on game conditions (small to moderate scatter is still acceptable if the target is a large unit, while large scatter can still be acceptable if there are multiple enemy units around the target).

Meanwhile, that minor increase in std deviation is ridiculously academic compared to the effect of having no more partial hits.

My Orks got taken behind the wood shed and got the beatdown of their lives due to frag missiles and Whirlwind incendiary (Codex BA) rounds (ignore cover saves) in my last game. Don't try to tell me that blast weapons suck. They don't.

Blast weapons are your "big unit killers" If you shoot a plasma cannon against a tiny little Marine squad of course it's going to suck if it scatters.

And the incendiary whirlwind round is an ass-kicker in 5th.

Brian P wrote:My Orks got taken behind the wood shed and got the beatdown of their lives due to frag missiles and Whirlwind incendiary (Codex BA) rounds (ignore cover saves) in my last game. Don't try to tell me that blast weapons suck. They don't.

Blast weapons are your "big unit killers" If you shoot a plasma cannon against a tiny little Marine squad of course it's going to suck if it scatters.

And the incendiary whirlwind round is an ass-kicker in 5th.

I think there's going to be a run on WW pieces at the bitz stores...