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simple question really, which would you rather run as your demon HQ, thirsters or keepers.

assuming that we even out the points like so:

Keeper of Secrets [255]
Soporific Musk, Pavane Of Slaanesh, Transfixing Gaze.

Musk is a must have, hit and run will ensure the keeper is always getting his charge bonus, and if he gets tarpitted, he can hop out of combat into one where his skills would be better served.

Pavane, combined with the keepers fleet move will all but guarentee an assault.. the effective range (assuming as sucessfull pavane) would be between 14 and 24 inches.. averaging somewhere around 17 or 18.

Gaze is to be used on enemy characters that can hurt the Keeper, plus to bring the points in line with the thirster..

Bloodthirster [255]
Blessing of the Blood God.

2+ invul save vs physic powers for 5 pts? yes please.

now lets break it down...

skill by skill:

WS: KoS=8 BT=10. obvious advantage to the thirster, however, the keeper is still hitting almost everything on 3s. so this can be considered even.. for the most part

BS: both 4.. who cares about the BS of these CC badies (though for pavane on the keeper it presents a potential issue)

S: KoS=6 BT=7 one point advantage to the thirster. they both kill t4 on 2s, however theres a big advantage to killing t5 guys on 2s instead of 3s. possibly the thirsters biggest advantage over the keeper.

T: both 6.. good high toughness, reliable for CC

W: both 4.. lots of wounds, just make sure they dont get overwhelmed by horde assault/mass small arms fire.

I: KoS=10 BT=5. HUGE advantage to the keeper here. it strikes first against everything. the thirster however will have to endure pounding from most elite assault units before or at the same time as it makes its own swings. throw enough init6 rending attacks at the thirster and it might not survive to attack back.

A: KoS=6 BT=5. another adavantage for the keeper, 7 attacks on each of your turns (providing you understand hit and run and how to use it effectively) is nothing to scoff at.

LD and Sv.. even, and nearly meaningless most wounds taken by the thirster will be ignoring his 3+ armor save.

now the special abilities, taking into account upgrades.

Keeper: Hit and Run, Fleet, Always fights at initiative, can pull units closer, -1 attack for that squad champ with a fist/klaw.
Thirster: Furious Charge, Flight, 2+ save vs psychic wounds.

this is where i think the keeper pulls ahead in the relatively even contest. the KoS can leave an undesirable combat that a thirster would be stuck in. the KoS can fleet (and if the new rumors are true, this mean he can assault off his DS) however the thirster can fly.. but the addition of pavane will make up for the randomness of the fleet move. the KoS always always fights at initiative, which means its always striking first. the thirster DOES have F Charge, but i dont think its enough to pull ahead of the keeper.. in the end i think the tooled out keeper is more effective than the thirster.. even more so if the new fleet rumor proves true. it can pick and chose its battles, which is a major advantage, has more attacks, can kill potential threats before the take a whack at him and is more cost effective.

id like to hear what the rest of you guys have to say.

The BT being WS 10 means meq hit him on 5's but still hit KS on 4's. The BT also has furious charge, so he's S8 I6 on the charge, insta killing most characters. Wings means he always gets a charge range of 18". And Slaanesh is a sissy.

WS 10 is quite valuable, it means he gets hit a third less on any meq he faces. That considerably lessons the danger posed by hidden powerfists and klaws which are probably the primary concern. Being able to instakill most any character is also a huge plus for the bloodthirster as next to those sneaky powerfists in the back this is probably the next most likely way that he will be taken down (discounting shooting). Then theres the fact that wings are more than just a method of moving faster. They allow the thirster to ignore terrain, intervening models, and other nasties that could bog down the KoS.

In sheer brute force the bloodthirster is the clear winner and its much better at closing with the enemy and picking which fight it wishes to first engage in. Once there is is able to kill more quickly and is less likely to suffer on the return. That said the keeper is better at dealing with shock troops like genestealers and other monstrous creatures where the lower bloodthirster initiative could cost it dearly. It is also much more difficult to tarpit and is better at disrupting the enemy formation by dancing around an army and killing soft targets like heavy weapons squads.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses, neither one is a clear loser in my mind.

I have fought both with my Eldrad+Avatar combo and the KoS is no match for a fortuned avatar (and I can doom the KoS too). The BT, on the other hand, is a more than fair fight. Even with fortune I have lost more often than won that duel.

Darrian

You can never assault in the turn you Deep Strike onto the table.

Not in 5th, not in 4th.

You also can't Pavane and fleet in the same phase.

Move target unit towards you d6" if you hit, needing a 3+?

Or...

Move d6 towards that unit, guaranteed?

Pavane is rather useless for the Keeper of Secrets unless it's trying to support some OTHER unit, but keep in mind it wouldn't be able to assault anything other than the unit it targetted.

I'd say go with the Keeper for utility, Hit and Run is indeed huge.

But if you want a beatstick, go with the thirster.

I've played games where the keeper's ability to Pavane a unit has been a real boon.

Consider this:

The bloodthirster comes down at some point. He's a huge target. He gets shot before doing anything.

The Keeper comes down. It's just as dangerous, so draws as much fire. BUT, it Pavanes an enemy unit closer to a friendly unit, allowing a charge by another daemon unit, which prevents the assaulted enemy unit from firing at the Keeper the following turn.

Assuming you're playing a greater daemon because you enjoy losing 250 point models to enemy shooting, at least the keeper can help out a little before it bites it. The Thirster is a lot less able to do so.

You missed: the S8 furious charge instakills T4 opponents. you have to seriously fluff your attacks not to kill an SM hero on the charge.

Both are nasty but given te choice I would still take the Keeper though for all the other reasons.

I voted for the thirster, mostly because it can fly and for the other reasons.. Other units can Pavane, can they not? You want that thing in combat, not messing around.

That 2+, does that apply to Force Weapons too?

Well, Force Weapons cause Instant Death now, and all demons are immue to that, I believe.

ah, nice. I have not seen the new book yet.

I'm not sure that I'm a real believer in the KoS configuration you posted. With the new edition, I don't see hit and run as being terribly necessary for a Keeper. Typically you would weather your turn and an opponents turn of CC before executing a hit and run in order to avoid being shot to pieces. In two turns of CC, more than likely you will have either prevailed and defeated your enemy in assault or you will have been killed. I also think putting Pavane on the KoS is a bad idea. If you want an MC with Pavane get a Slaanesh DP it has a better BS and will probably be cheaper. I think a KoS should be used in the following configuration:

Keeper of Secrets 225pts.
Transfixing Gaze, Unholy Might

This configuration isn't as pricey and helps to ensure that even toughness 5 creatures will be easily swept aside by the Keeper.

Personally, I think there is no clean answer to this question as each has a slightly different combat role. The Keeper is a squad sweeper with decent anti-armor/monster/character CC capability, while the Bloodthirster is better at anti-armor/monster/character work while still having decent anti-squad abilities. This also fails to mention different combat situations that may arise. If I absolutely have to engage a C'Tan in CC I would definitely prefer the Bloodthirster (though even he would probably fail). However if I needed to assault genestealers the Keeper is a better option, especially if they happen to be sitting in cover.

There are just too many factors to give a strong answer one way or the other, most of which having to do with what kind of support your army gives them and how you like to fight.

I voted for the bloodthirster simply because I've like the berserker archetype since I read my first comic with Wolverine in it. Since most everything Khorne is eternally pissed, I figure it counts.

I would prefer the Keeper at 200pts over a Thirster at 250pts. Those 50pts saved justifies taking the KOS. However if the points start to even out then the Bloodthirster pulls away.

In a khorne list you biggest hole is tank hunting. Blood thirster takes care of that nicely. It also has a nice dual role of swatting T4 heros dead and spaltting big creatures well too.

Teh keeper pretty much is good at killing infantry, which is what the rest of the army is good at. Sooo... To me the blodd thirster is moire valuable.

Spellbound wrote:You also can't Pavane and fleet in the same phase.

True in 4th, but I think you can in 5th since the new "fleet" doesn't happen during the Shooting Phase anymore. You can't Run and Pavane in the same phase now, but fleet simply adds to your assault range in 5th.

At least I think that's the case, am I off base?

You are off base. In 5th, fleet is exactly like running EXCEPT you can then assault in the assualt phase. So you can fleet OR shoot but not both.

Bah, I knew it sounded too good to be true.

Neither one! Take 2 chariots and call me in the morning.