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I don't have the exact wording but, models of different stat lines/weapon load outs are assigned wounds per model then groups of like saves are rolled together.

Reguarding this, Is the non veteran Sarg.(equiped with lasgun?) in an IG Infantry Platoon a seperate group from the Guardsmen?
Important to know:
- He has the same statistics
- He has the exact same equipment
- He has a seperate name and stat line in Codex Infantry Platoon entry

Does the last bullet make him different enough?

Why does it matter:

Here is the unlikely scenario I'm preparing for. Guard squad with no weapon upgrades takes 11 wounds.
If all saves are rolled together and 1 is saved, they all still die.
If I can slide an extra wound to the Sarg, the 2 for Sarg fail, but one of the other 9 Saves. I keep one Guardsman.

What is one guardsman gonna do, though?

It's not game breaking, but when troop units score to the last man, 1 guardsman can win a game.

I see what you mean, but I'm thinking that lone guardsman would A) Run like there's no tomorrow or B) Get killed next phase/turn anyways.

In answer to you question, I think that if he has different stats he is different from the troops.

Well that's just it he has the exact same stats and equipment printed on a different stat line.

And I know that I could just give him a pistol and the answer is clear. However, I like me Sergeants with lasguns, and I don't like to get the Vet upgrade.

If he has the exact same stats and loadout, I'm thinkin' he's counted as the same as the rest of them. But if you're just playing with friends, tell them about it and see what they say.

Pg 25. "assume that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear"

If the sarge in question meets these criteria, he is no different "in gaming terms" as the rest of the guardsmen and does not constitute a complex addition to a unit and therefor all wounds are applied equally.

I'm with DaBoss. The rules state the criteria for a complex unit and the Sergeant doesn't apply unless he has different weapons than the guardsmen.

What about "the same profile of characteristics" on page 44 of the IG codex(even though it's Identical) the model clearly has a different profile of characteristics.

(Again, ultimately, I'm talking about saving a fraction of a guardsman. I'm not trying to be argumentative, It's just still unclear to me.)

Datajax wrote:What about "the same profile of characteristics" on page 44 of the IG codex(even though it's Identical) the model clearly has a different profile of characteristics.

(Again, ultimately, I'm talking about saving a fraction of a guardsman. I'm not trying to be argumentative, It's just still unclear to me.)

He does? What characteristic is different from the rest of the guardsmen in the unit?

Gonna have to make him a Vet Sgt. or give him the LP/CCW or Shotgun. If he's toting a LG, he's just like the rest of the gropos 'cept he has some stripes.

If you had a commissar attached to the unit he woud be significantly different enough to have to roll for seperately. because of that you might want to roll him seperately all of the time just to be consistent.

Like you though, the majority of my sarges are just another rifleman in the squad. I don't think it would affect the game in enough of a way to make a difference either way.

@Yak
On page 44 in the IG codex there are 3 models listed
--Guardsman (human statline)
--Sergeant (same as Guardsman)
--Vet Sergeant( increase to LD, and Attks IIRC)

Now, to further complicate. While listed seperately in the Infantry Squad listing, the Sergeant statline doesn't appear in the quick reference in Codex:IG

Datajax,

Pg 25 of the rulebook defines what a complex element in a unit is, and it reads "assume that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear"

So, just because the Sergeant has a different name than the guardsmen means nothing. If he has identical stats, the same wargear, and the same exact special rules, the game does not differentiate between him and a regular gaurdsman and therefore cannot be rolled separate from the squad as a whole. Please note we are not talking about a Vet Sarge, just a normal sarge.

And as a note, it does not matter if his stats appear or not in the back reference area, as long as they are clearly defined in the unit entry and that is where list building occurs. The back reference is just for that, reference. It may also not include him because he IS identical to the gaurdsmen, just with different wargear options. Again, its all clearly defined in the stipulation on pg 25 of the BGB.

I agree with DaBoss. The rules are clear:

If the model has the same statline, special rules and equipment then it is the same type of model for casualty removal purposes.

Thanks all for hashing this out with me. At times I get pretty dense and need to go through a few iterations before I can move on to the next argument.

I'm I mistaken, or does it not really matter if he's treated as different or not?

You allocate wounds, then you roll to save. Technically, you're rolling for each model, one at a time. The only time the difference issue comes up in this example is as you group dice. You could still opt to put 2 wounds on the Sarge.

In this respect, it seems like any model can serve the same purpose you're describing, and we need to rethink how we roll wounds.

It'd seem that the correct process here would be to roll all models that are similar and have only one save to make, pull oot the dead, then roll all models that are similar and have two saves to make, etc.

Bottom line, the new rules seem to create a situation where a single model can fail more saves than he has wounds. This wasn't really possible before, as the wounds remained nebulous and unassigned until after they were saved or not.

Am I offbase?

You don't roll saves per model unless it is a distinct model group. In this case all the Guardsmen & the Sgt. are in the same model group, so all saves for the entire group would be rolled as one - removing unsaved wounds as the controller of the target unit sees fit.

If the Sgt. were a distinct model group, you could assign 1 wound to all models and then an additional wound to the Sgt., potentially dooming that model but leaving the rest of the Guardsmen in better shape.

So Yak lets say we have 9 guardsmen with lasguns and then a joe-schmo sergeant with laspistol and ccw. So if the squad does have 10 wounds you have to roll for the sergeant separately?

Yup. A Lasgun is the not the same wargear as a Laspistol or a Close Combat Weapon.