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5th edition rulebook page 62:

It is worth pointing out that some armies might use different versions of smoke launchers, which have slightly different rules. As normal, the rules in the Codex take precedence.

So if Demonhunter smoke launchers still turn pens to glances, would this mean that Demonhunter Force Weapons still outright kill models immune to instant death? The Demonhunter codex contains full rules text for both Smoke Launchers and Force Weapons and they differ from the 5th edition rulebook.

The wording of the rules for smoke launchers apply to smoke launchers only. You can't assume that they apply to anything else.

Ghaz is correct. What that citation is simply stating is some races use equipment very similar to smoke launchers which function differently and to refer to those codices for those rules. This might include Eldar Holo-fields or Tau Decoy Launchers to name some. Anything labeled Smoke Launchers and Force weapons still must refer to the general rule found in the rule book.

DaBoss wrote:Anything labeled Smoke Launchers... still must refer to the general rule found in the rule book.

Actually that's only true if the codex tells you to look in the main rulebook for the rules for smoke launchers (e.g., Codex Chaos Space Marines). If the codex has the rules for smoke launchers printed in their codex then those are the rules that they use. Items such as Decoy Launchers and Holo-fields are not smoke launchers and therefore are not covered by this rule at all.

*rolls eyes* I guess some people prefer driving away opponents instead of playing a game.

Spellbound wrote:*rolls eyes* I guess some people prefer driving away opponents instead of playing a game.

Haha, thanks for adding to the discussion and helping to answer my question.

*rolls eyes* I guess some people like to argue against strawmen instead of actual issues.

Ghaz wrote:The wording of the rules for smoke launchers apply to smoke launchers only. You can't assume that they apply to anything else.

I would agree, but the following: "As normal, the rules in the Codex take precedence" (empahsis mine) seems to imply that the rules in the specific codex are to be used unless otherwise noted (example: codex FAQ'd to use rulebook description).

You are correct Ghaz, had to relook at the rule to see fully what the citation was in reference to.

To kadun, while I'll buy that the smoke launcher in the DH codex must be used instead of the rulebook, this is only due to the line you have cited. There is no such reference for Force Weapons, however. The only two times this type of precedence in the ruling of the codex only shows up in reference to Special Rules and the Smoke Launcher section you have cited. Therefore, it should be understood that the Force Weapon rules in the Rulebook should be used in place of the one in the DH codex. At least this is my take on it.

kadun wrote:I would agree, but the following: "As normal, the rules in the Codex take precedence" (empahsis mine) seems to imply that the rules in the specific codex are to be used unless otherwise noted (example: codex FAQ'd to use rulebook description).

It still doesn't mean that the wording of the rules for smoke launchers applies to anything other than smoke launchers. It simply states what is 'normal', but not always the case. You have to go on a case by case basis. Just because smoke launchers are 'normal' by no means insures that force weapons are without making an unfounded assumption. 'Normal' does not mean 'always'.

if someone tried to pull that garbage with a smoke launcher they would quickly find themselves without an opponent

I hate it when people pour over codexes looking for holes in RAW.

really glad my playgroup is a bit more flexible than that

NaZ

NaZ wrote:if someone tried to pull that garbage with a smoke launcher they would quickly find themselves without an opponent

Are you referring to the "garbage" where the 5th Edition Rulebook rather clearly states for you to use the rules for Smoke Launchers defined in a Codex rather than the Rulebook? If you and your playgroup would like to "house rule" that rule away that's fine... you're still not playing by the rulebook only because you don't like what the rule says.

@Ghaz, Da Boss: What if the rulebook read:

It is worth pointing out that some armies might use different versions of smoke launchers, which have slightly different rules. As an exception to the norm, the rules in the Codex take precedence.

This would imply that under normal conditions the Rulebook descriptions take precedence, but the exception for Smoke Launchers is that the Codex takes precedence.

But in fact it says just the opposite, (paraphrasing)"Codex descriptions take precedence for Smoke Launchers as they do normally." I do, however, see your points.

Yakface if you're reading this, I'd like your take on it.

Again, you're trying to take a rules quote that deals with smoke launchers only and apply it to other situations. You can make all of the 'what if's' that you want to but it doesn't change anything. Yes, you would normally use the rules in the codex over the rule book, but not because a line in the rules for smoke launchers said so.

kadun wrote:
Are you referring to the "garbage" where the 5th Edition Rulebook rather clearly states for you to use the rules for Smoke Launchers defined in a Codex rather than the Rulebook? If you and your playgroup would like to "house rule" that rule away that's fine... you're still not playing by the rulebook only because you don't like what the rule says.

Yup. That garbage. Things get printed without people thinking about it, like the old T1 W3 thrall wizards of the old chaos codex.

I, for one, will use smoke launchers as they appear in the rulebook - because they're smoke launchers. They aren't super-special nifty fun Daemonhunter Smoke Launchers, they're the same old run of the mill standard issue imperial smoke launchers,

I bet you're also going to try to combine it with the new cover rules, aren't you?

"Look, I'm using Smoke Launchers, AND I'm behind this building! All your pen. hits are glancing, and I get a 4+ save against them too!"

You want my contribution to the conversation, and my take on it? Fine. I think that you're mis-applying the so-called "obvious" ruling in the rulebook to gain an unfair advantage.

[sarcasim]I love this line of thinking.

If I can take the smoke launcher rule and therefore apply it to force weapons .... it means I can take any rule I do like and use it to overwrite a rule I don't like.

Woo hoo!!

Here comes my rail gun submunitions (and earthshaker and battle cannon rounds too) ignoring cover saves because I use a "template". True it's a "blast template" but it's still a template!
[/sacrasim]

Really .... it is rather obvious that this ruling only applys to smoke launchers and only where the codex states that the smoke launcher has different rules to the book. And if those rules don't say you get a 4+ save .... well you get to downgrade the pen to a glance .... but no cover save for you!

I must admit I feel that it is a little silly as practically all the 3rd ed codices write the rule out in full rather than saying refer to the BRB. I guess if you're using a 3rd ed codex you get a bonus until your codex is redone.

kadun wrote:
This would imply that under normal conditions the Rulebook descriptions take precedence, but the exception for Smoke Launchers is that the Codex takes precedence.

But in fact it says just the opposite, (paraphrasing)"Codex descriptions take precedence for Smoke Launchers as they do normally." I do, however, see your points.

Yakface if you're reading this, I'd like your take on it.

The line about using rules from individual codices is in place (in my mind) so that GW can change the rule in upcoming codices without having to worry about invalidating the existing rule (the same as they say in the reference section at the back of the rulebook).

But the book does say to reference the codex and the codex wording does say what it says. It is one of the many things that should have been included in the 5th edition codex FAQs but was not.


With that said, I can't imagine anyone every trying to use this ruling in a game so I don't really even see the point in arguing about it.

RAW seems pretty clear: rules in Codices are used over those in the BRB except where specifically stated (ie in FAQs). By RAW, then, Daemonhunters and such use their own rules for smoke launchers and force weapons, but it seems pretty clear that it was *probably* intended that they use the updated rules, simply because of the sheer age of the Codex involved.

Like Yak, I really can't see a GK player trying to pull this off anyway.

ITS BGB NOT BRB DAMMIT!!!!! BRB IS FOR US WHFB PEOPLE!!!! AND DON'T YOU TRY AND TAKE THAT FROM US!!!!!!!

You know I'm just going to use BRB from now on just to spite WHFB players, right?

For smoke launchers, it's going to come up fairly often until September or so. The Space Marines codex also has the glancing text rather than a refer to the rulebook text. Presumably, this will be revised out in the SM's codex revision. Until then, though, it seems clear that that part is as intended.

I don't think I buy the force weapons thing unless there's more to go by. Holding the smoke launcher section to be about more than smoke launchers feels doubtful.

Where exactly does the line of thought even come from that the codex wins out in a conflict? The smoke launcher section says "as normal" but it's far from an actual rule in and of itself. It makes it sound more like a reminder of a rule mentioned elsewhere, but I sure didn't see anywhere in that book that it said "Whenever a rule in this rulebook conflicts with a specific rule in a Codex, use the rule from the codex." The USR section mentioned it too, but it had the wording "As this is just a summary..." implying that the codex takes precedence over it because it was a generalized list, not because of some governing rule.

If someone knows where the rule states explicitly that the codices overrule the rulebook, outside of the offhand remark in the smoke section, by all means point it out to me.

sirisaacnuton wrote:
If someone knows where the rule states explicitly that the codices overrule the rulebook, outside of the offhand remark in the smoke section, by all means point it out to me.

Outside the statement in the Smoke Section and the rules for the USR, no where in the rulebook does it mention that the Codex takes precedence. That is the crux of the argument against using rules for *other* wargear if they are present in the Codex. Also worth noting, however, that the rulebook never mentioned that it always takes precedence over the Codex, it doesn't even mention that it sometimes takes precedence over the Codex.

Still doesn't the following sound odd:

I will use the Smoke Launcher rules in the Codex because as normal the Codex takes precedence.
I will use the Force Weapon rules in the Rulebook because as normal the Rulebook takes precedence.
I will use the USRs in the Codex because they are specific rules to the summaries in the Rulebook.

There is a solid RAW argument that the Codex takes precedence and afterall, the purpose of YMDC is to determine RAW not argue "intent" or how it "should" be played.

Maybe. I'm dubious that there is a solid RAW argument for the Codex taking priority on anything other than the places the rules say it does (after all, that's the definition of RAW). After all, the RAW on page 1 of my rulebook says "THE RULES" in large bold letters. It seems hard to make RAW arguments that these are not, in fact, the rules in any case where it isn't written that something else takes priority. In the case of smoke launchers, the rules (as written) say the codex takes over. Ditto the USRs. Beyond that, RAW says nothing about any other part of the rules not being the rules used to play the game.

So just sticking to RAW, I'll be concluding that the section of the book titled "the rules" will be used as the rules of the game, except in places where the rules dictate I look elsewhere for the rules (smoke, USRs, special rules of particular armies).

Besides, RAW aside, this entire argument is silly as it should be obvious that the old codices are not written to be 100% compatible with this edition of the rules. After all, the rule And They Shall Know No Fear doesn't even technically exist at the current time. I can't see how anyone could think that making a dubious RAW argument that requires extrapolation between a rulebook and a codex written two rulesets ago that allow a particular weapon to function differently for one army than that same weapon functions for every other army is the least bit right.

But that's just my 2 cents. I just think you better be prepared for a lot of arguments over the move in any kind of non-tournament setting, and for a judge or TO to tell you no in a tournament.

sirisaacnuton wrote:Maybe. I'm dubious that there is a solid RAW argument for the Codex taking priority on anything other than the places the rules say it does (after all, that's the definition of RAW). After all, the RAW on page 1 of my rulebook says "THE RULES" in large bold letters. It seems hard to make RAW arguments that these are not, in fact, the rules in any case where it isn't written that something else takes priority. In the case of smoke launchers, the rules (as written) say the codex takes over. Ditto the USRs. Beyond that, RAW says nothing about any other part of the rules not being the rules used to play the game.

The very nature of a codex is that it is an expansion on the basic rules and it essentially overrides or supercedes the basic rules to allow armies to have their own specific special rules.

For example, you have basic rules in the rulebook that say: when a unit fires it must do 'X,Y & Z'. A codex is then produced with a special rule that allows that army (or a unit within that army) to ignore step 'Y' when shooting. Clearly the codex takes precedence over the core rules and the army is allowed to skip step 'Y' when shooting.

The fact is, players, especially players new to the game cannot be expected to intuitively know exactly which special rules in codices are supposed to be superseded by a new rulebook and which are not. This is especially true when the rulebook has been out a while and codices have since been released.

For example, if the new Space Marine codex is released next month with a different version of the smoke launcher rule in it, which version do you think takes precedence for Space Marines? The answer is obviously the codex version.

And if a 'new' marine codex's version of the smoke launcher supersedes the core rulebook version, why would a player naturally assume that the 'current' marine codex's version of the smoke launcher doesn't supersede the core rulebook version as well?


The fact is, players shouldn't be responsible for guessing which parts of their codex are antiquated and which are still in use. All parts of a codex that are replaced by a rule in the rulebook should be clearly identified in the codex's FAQ.

The problem is, the 5th edition codex FAQs are *woefully* lacking in the department of actually identifying and clarifying outdated rules in codices, which is the same exact problem GW had with the 3rd to 4th edition transition.

Apparently they didn't learn much of anything from that experience.

GW just doesn't seem very interested in "updating" / FAQing old rule books.

They seem to have the policy of here's the new rule book. We'll give you the information about how your race works in the new edition when we get around to writing the new Codex ... until then good luck!