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IMHO Terribly RAW interpretation follows:

Ingredients:
1 or more Wave Serpents with Star Engines

To use:
Wave Serpent Rams tank in Movement phase, uses Star Engines to pivot and Ram another in the Shooting phase.

Eldar/Star Engines FAQ: "This extra move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting phase."
Eldar/Star Engines FAQ: "As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines."

Ramming says that you may not shoot, but does not say "counts as having shot".

It gets better (or worse, depending on your perspective): Wave Serpent energy field protects against attacks except "attacks in close combat or from the rear" so you could claim you won't face worse than S8 back at you since you are executing it in the movement or shooting phase. Ramming is a "special" form of Tank Shock and Tank Shock is not described as a close combat attack.

So a weapon that's S9 in the Movement phase and S7 in the Shooting phase, with a 50% chance of not getting even a glance when ramming even a Monolith or Land Raider. Not that I would play that way, but...

The problem with this is that the star engine movement only happens in the shooting phase and ramming only can happen in the movement phase. So no double ramming for you.

Phoenix wrote:The problem with this is that the star engine movement only happens in the shooting phase and ramming only can happen in the movement phase. So no double ramming for you.

Page ref? I don't see anything about the Movement Phase on p69.

Phoenix wrote: ramming only can happen in the movement phase.

pg 69: Ramming "Ramming is a special type of tank shock move..."

pg. 68: Tank Shock "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally."

So, instead of moving normally with Star Engines in the Shooting phase, I'm going to make a tank shock-- a special tank shock move called "ramming".

I can't find anywhere that says ramming or tank shock can only be done in the movement phase, but if you see it please point it out to nullify the Serpong.

Tank Shock isn't even in the Movement section of Vehicles.

Considering the straight-line nature of Ramming/Tank-shocking, and the fact that unless the rammed vehicle explodes you stop, you'd be hard pressed to find the enemy set up in such a way that you could hit him in the last few inches of your 24" move, then pivot and move in a straight line to hit a tank in the last few inches of your 12" movement, particularly more than once. More than likely they'll either be a bit too far away, or closer so that you end up inflicting something like a S6 hit. This whole thing could end up being much harder to effectively use than it might initially seem.

Besides, with a Wave Serpent costing 105 with just Star Engines (plus at least 10 more for the cheapest possible weapons, and most likely another 10 for spirit stones) that's an expensive ramming vessel, considering you could certainly end up destroying your own vehicle with it. I wouldn't worry too terribly much about the mass-ramming Wave Serpent lists. If they're too much trouble, you could always field some of your own skimmers. Even a Land Speeder could get in the way of the ram, take it's 3+ dodge save, and stop the ram in it's place if it saves.

Don't be this guy. Really.

"Moving normally" is the key phrase here. Using your Star Engines is not "moving normally". It is a special move provided by the vehicle upgrade.

Ghaz wrote:"Moving normally" is the key phrase here. Using your Star Engines is not "moving normally". It is a special move provided by the vehicle upgrade.

"Moving normally" just refers to "not tank shocking or ramming," otherwise it would say "In the movement phase." Taking "moving normally" out of context like that does change what it's referring to, but when you look at the entirety of the quote, it becomes clear: "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally."

Anytime you can move a tank, you may choose to tank shock or ram instead of moving normally (ie. not tank shocking or ramming).

No. 'Moving normally' applies to movement allowed by a vehicle via the rules in the main rulebook. Moving in the Shooting phase using Star Engines can not be considered 'moving normally'.

Ghaz wrote:No. 'Moving normally' applies to movement allowed by a vehicle via the rules in the main rulebook. Moving in the Shooting phase using Star Engines can not be considered 'moving normally'.

Moving "normally" is not defined in the rulebook and any definition you give it is your attempt at divining the will of the developers, nothing more. One could just as easily argue that moving more than 12" is not moving "normally" because normal (ie, not fast) vehicles cannot do it, therefore you cannot move more than 12" while making a Tank Shock attack. I would argue that it is "normal" for a fast vehicle to move fast just as it is "normal" for a vehicle with Star Engines to use them.

Ghaz wrote:No. 'Moving normally' applies to movement allowed by a vehicle via the rules in the main rulebook. Moving in the Shooting phase using Star Engines can not be considered 'moving normally'.

"Moving Normally" is not defined that way in the rulebook. I don't think it's defined in the rulebook at all, in fact. In the context that the phrase is used in, I believe that the authors are saying that there are two types of moving- tank shocking (and ramming, which is an extension thereof) and not tank shocking.

As to fast vehicles tank shocking, it says under their description that they follow all vehicle movement rules, unless noted otherwise. As such, since they are not restricted from tank shocking in their description, they revert to the predefined vehicle movement rules.

Danny Internets wrote:Moving "normally" is not defined in the rulebook and any definition you give it is your attempt at divining the will of the developers, nothing more.

And yet that's exactly what you and Banik are trying to do by some sort of twisted 'logic' that says that a piece of gear that gives a vehicle a move when it normally not be able to is a 'normal' move. That does not pass the stink test. If it's not done when you can normally move then it's not a normal move.

So to clarify Star Engines are still mostly pointless?

My first reaction to this was sure .... you can do it. After all the wave serpent does get two lots of movement thanks to star engines.

However after looking at the two specific rules it's fairly clear you can't double ram.

Rule Book (Ramming) pg 69 - "This means that it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting Phase..."

Eldar Codex (Star Engines) pg 44 - "It may move an additional 12" in lue of shooting..."

Seeing as Ramming prevents you from shooting that turn, you are not able to use an ability "in lue of shooting".

Meep357 wrote:My first reaction to this was sure .... you can do it. After all the wave serpent does get two lots of movement thanks to star engines.

However after looking at the two specific rules it's fairly clear you can't double ram.

Rule Book (Ramming) pg 69 - "This means that it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting Phase..."

Eldar Codex (Star Engines) pg 44 - "It may move an additional 12" in lue of shooting..."

Seeing as Ramming prevents you from shooting that turn, you are not able to use an ability "in lue of shooting".

Check out the Eldar FAQ, it makes it clear that Star Engines can be used as long as the vehicle is able to move and doesn't shoot that turn. Whether or not it was even allowed to shoot that turn is immaterial.

Damn you yak for originally having the movement done in the shooting phase instead of the movement phase. (it was your adepticon ruling the stole right?) No str 15 Rams with wave serpents T_T

yakface wrote:Check out the Eldar FAQ, it makes it clear that Star Engines can be used as long as the vehicle is able to move and doesn't shoot that turn. Whether or not it was even allowed to shoot that turn is immaterial.

Woo hoo .... double ram Wave Serpents!!

With the wave serpent able to move twice (once in the movement phase and once in the shooting phase) and you can ram when you move ....

Still ... the energy field only works against ranged attacks .... so there'll be no downgrading of ram hits to s8

I still think it's a waste of a wave serpent
I'll let you do it (until someone can offer a logical argument about why you can only ram in the movement phase)
I won't be putting my tanks within 12" of each other when going against an eldar player.

I wouldnt classify star engines movement during the shootingphase as "normal movement" and cant see how anyone can see it as anything but a "special move".

you are reading something that is not there.

remeber the rules are exclusive rather than inclusive. if it doesnt say your cant do something, it doesnt mean you can.

normal movement, although not defined specifically in the rules, happens in the movement phase. normal anything is how it is defined in the rule book. sine the rulebook says movement happens in the movement phase then that is the norm. (because they are defined in the rulebook, the movement of fast vehicles, non-fast vehices, infanty, jump-infantry, bikes, jet-bikes, jet-pack infanty and beasts are all considered 'normal')

if you can find me somewhere that says that normal movement can occur in the shooting phase or that star engine count as normal movement, then ill believe you.

until then trying to allow something, that isnt specifically stated is trying to divine the will of the developers.

Rules: exclusive, not inclusive.


(having said all that i think things should be able to ram in the shooting phase, but you wanted a RAW argument)

Ghaz wrote:And yet that's exactly what you and Banik are trying to do by some sort of twisted 'logic' that says that a piece of gear that gives a vehicle a move when it normally not be able to is a 'normal' move. That does not pass the stink test. If it's not done when you can normally move then it's not a normal move.

Each of our stances are based on our interpretation of what the authors are trying to convey with the word "Normal."

Even Regwon is deciding what they mean by "normal" by saying that it only happens in the movement phase.

I suppose we've hashed out all the rules that are relevant, and the ruling comes down to waiting for GW to define "Normal."


Anyway, it's been fun, and yes, personally, I'll be ramming with Star Engines

if you can find me somewhere that says that normal movement can occur in the shooting phase or that star engine count as normal movement, then ill believe you.

There is nothing in the rules that says normal movement can occur in the movement phase either, because normal movement is not defined. You are also reading something that is not there, which is why your strict RAW argument doesn't work (and neither does mine for that matter). It comes down to a plain English interpretation of what "normal" movement is, and it can be argued in a number of different ways, all equally valid.

However, it does specifically state that moving Flat Out is not normal movement (in the rules for Fast vehicles). The rules here are specified as "additions or exceptions" to the normal vehicle rules.

Thus a vehicle can not Ram while moving Flat Out - as this isn't normal movement.

Meep357 wrote:Still ... the energy field only works against ranged attacks .... so there'll be no downgrading of ram hits to s8

I haven't checked Ramming for this, but doesn't the main rule of not being able to move within 1" of a model still apply since this is not an assault? So obviously Ramming is some sort of attack with range just over 1", giving you the protection of the field.

Democratus wrote:However, it does specifically state that moving Flat Out is not normal movement (in the rules for Fast vehicles).

I'd still say BRB defines Flat Out as "...treated in all respects exactly the same as moving at cruising speed for a vehicle that is not fast (except where noted otherwise)." So since Tanks going Cruising Speed can Ram, so can Fast Tanks.

Who else has Fast Tanks besides Eldar, and the odd FW Imperial something-or-other?

BA rhinos

Regwon wrote:if you can find me somewhere that says that normal movement can occur in the shooting phase or that star engine count as normal movement, then ill believe you.

The original Star Engines entry in the Codex just reads "may move an additional 12 inches". I've always played that in the movement phase until the FAQ came out. The FAQ calls the movement "extra". So is "extra" == "normal" or "special"? I guess that's what it comes down to.

Does movement granted as part of a vehicle upgrade count as "special" unless it is said to be "normal"?

Regwonuntil wrote: then trying to allow something, that isnt specifically stated is trying to divine the will of the developers.

True, I would never play the double ram way, and definitely not the field vs. ramming, but just noting my twisted interpretation of RAW.

realgenius wrote:I'd still say BRB defines Flat Out as "...treated in all respects exactly the same as moving at cruising speed for a vehicle that is not fast (except where noted otherwise)." So since Tanks going Cruising Speed can Ram, so can Fast Tanks.

Who else has Fast Tanks besides Eldar, and the odd FW Imperial something-or-other?

The rule that treats Flat Out that way is, in itself, not a normal rule. As defined in the Fast vehicles section. It states that all rules on that page are "additions and exceptions" - which would include the rule you quoted.

Flat Out is explicitly not "normal" according to the BRB.

Democratus wrote:The rule that treats Flat Out that way is, in itself, not a normal rule. As defined in the Fast vehicles section. It states that all rules on that page are "additions and exceptions" - which would include the rule you quoted.

Flat Out is explicitly not "normal" according to the BRB.

So just Flat Out isn't normal or Fast Vehicles are not normal? I'll have to read it again, but it would be a shame to be able to say RAW Fast vehicles can't disembark troops, etc since they aren't "normal".

Embarking and Disembarking are in a different section of the rules. The section for Fast vehicles contains the following: "Fast vehicles follow the normal rules for vehicles, with the additions and exceptions given below."

It then has rules for moving fast vehicles (Flat Out), and Firing/Assaulting/Transport for Fast vehicles. All of these rules (as noted in the opening sentence) are not "normal".

Thus, Flat Out movement is not normal movement and can't be used while Ramming.

Assuming Deocratus' premise to be true, since Ramming requires vehicles to move at maximum capable speed, this would disallow Fast vehicles from being able to perform a Ramming attack ever, RAW.