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Hello there! I am a returning player to 40K (haven't played since 2nd edition). I've picked-up the 5th ed rules, an Eldar codex, and have even gotten a game in with the new rules.

I guess what I would like to do is make sure I am understanding a few things about the Eldar, that seem to have changed over the past few editions, and into 3rd. So please bear with me, and remember that for all intents and purposes, I am a noob.

Looking through troop choices and such....

I recall Banshees used to be one of my favorite units. As I recall (and it's been almost a decade, so this could be wrong), but they used STR5 powerswords that had like a -3 save to them, along with las-pistols. While it appears they've gotten an upgrade to Shuri-pistolas, it appears that their swords are rather weak now. I understand 'power weapon' is pretty strong, but are they truly a STR 3 to wound now?

If so... do current Eldar players find that useful? Against Marines (still the most prolific enemy I'll face, easily, even after all these years and the addition of a few new Xenos races), they need something like 5s to wound. Am I reading that correctly? And CC weapons no longer have save mods (or AP values)? Is that also accurate?

Another unit that doesn't seem to be as useful as they used to be, are Striking Scorpions. Granted, they do get an extra Attack (mandiblasters) and their chainswords are +1S I believe (bringing them to a 4)... how do current Eldar players feel about these?

Moving on - Warp Spiders no longer appear to use a template... and while their spinners have a decent STR rating, their AP value is "-". That means everything that has a save gets a save, correct? Do current Eldar players ever use these guys?

Eldar psyker powers appear to be about the same that I remember, and pretty useful. I always loved their background and fluff.

I see a lot of folks here who don't seem to like using Exarchs in general. Are they generally overcosted or something? Is it because of the single wound? I see the Warp Spider Exarch can take a 2nd spinner (as his model depicts, too) and becomes Assault 4, basically having the firepower of an additional Spider for about 5 points less... is that a terrible deal?

I also see quite a bit of folks unimpressed with Dire Avengers... Comparing them at 12pts to Guardians at 8... are there differences generally worth the 4 pts extra?

Wraithguard appear to be about the only regular model with staying power in the force now. Are they over-rated? I see their guns are still extremely deadly - is a full unit of 10 of these in a 1500 points considered the 'norm'? Cheesy? To be expected?

I read threads here that put the Eldar in the top 4 toughest armies in 5th edition, and I am just curious how folks thought about that in general, and why.

Thank you for your time.

Banshees are quite useful against MEQ. But Harlies were much better but now rending changed a bit and so the enemy unit should be doomed so that rending becomes effective.

Scorpions were not an obligatory unit in 4th ed, only against horde armies. In the new ed, Scorpions (eventually mounted in a Serpent) can make a flank attack, a nasty surprise for the opponent.

Wraithguard is considered in the new ed, as a 10 men squad counts a troop and so is a scoring unit. However, they are very expensive and vulnerable to power fist attacks (Termies).

Eldar psykers mostly have defensive powers. One Farseer with roward is mandatory in tournament play.

Exarchs enhance the capabilities of the squads they lead. But don't go overboard with upgrades.

Eldar armies only work with synergy, combining the effects of different units.

Mort wrote:I recall Banshees used to be one of my favorite units. As I recall (and it's been almost a decade, so this could be wrong), but they used STR5 powerswords that had like a -3 save to them, along with las-pistols. While it appears they've gotten an upgrade to Shuri-pistolas, it appears that their swords are rather weak now. I understand 'power weapon' is pretty strong, but are they truly a STR 3 to wound now?

Yes. Gone are the days of many types of modifiers.

Mort wrote:If so... do current Eldar players find that useful? Against Marines (still the most prolific enemy I'll face, easily, even after all these years and the addition of a few new Xenos races), they need something like 5s to wound. Am I reading that correctly? And CC weapons no longer have save mods (or AP values)? Is that also accurate?

People generally prefer to use harlequins, but that doesn't mean banshees don't have a use. In fact, because of the power weapons and the reduction in power of the harlies rending ability, you will definitely bee sing more banshees on the table than you would witness in 4th ed.

Mort wrote:Another unit that doesn't seem to be as useful as they used to be, are Striking Scorpions. Granted, they do get an extra Attack (mandiblasters) and their chainswords are +1S I believe (bringing them to a 4)... how do current Eldar players feel about these?

Still quite useful. I don't use them myself, but there are instances where they could be a preferable elites choice.

Mort wrote:Moving on - Warp Spiders no longer appear to use a template... and while their spinners have a decent STR rating, their AP value is "-". That means everything that has a save gets a save, correct? Do current Eldar players ever use these guys?

Correct. These had gottens some fair amount of use in 4th ed, but since AP- weapons cannot do a whole lot to vehicles in 5th ed, their role is sure to be diminished.

Mort wrote:I see a lot of folks here who don't seem to like using Exarchs in general. Are they generally overcosted or something? Is it because of the single wound? I see the Warp Spider Exarch can take a 2nd spinner (as his model depicts, too) and becomes Assault 4, basically having the firepower of an additional Spider for about 5 points less... is that a terrible deal?

I don't know about that. If I have a aspect warrior unit, there has to be a really good reason for me to NOT take an exarch. Exarch define the unit they are in it seems. Basically, they give the special rules to that aspect squad to make it function above par.

Mort wrote:I also see quite a bit of folks unimpressed with Dire Avengers... Comparing them at 12pts to Guardians at 8... are there differences generally worth the 4 pts extra?

I have no idea why that would be. In comparison to guardians, especially if you math hammer those two units by comparison, you get a much better yield on the points invested in dire avengers than if you were to take defenders. Smaller unit size, but they are a unit that, when an exarch is included, is pretty much implacable.

Mort wrote:Wraithguard appear to be about the only regular model with staying power in the force now. Are they over-rated? I see their guns are still extremely deadly - is a full unit of 10 of these in a 1500 points considered the 'norm'? Cheesy? To be expected?

No, no and no. They are good to be sure, but they are expensive to field. Many people have a love hate relationship with them. it comes down to personal prefference with them. As an example, I use a unit of three as a walking body guard for my eldrad model in 4th ed.

Mort wrote:I read threads here that put the Eldar in the top 4 toughest armies in 5th edition, and I am just curious how folks thought about that in general, and why.

Skimmer tanks are still quite good. You can now share transports where previously you had to by a falcon and only use a squad of 6 to get them to do their job.

The power of cover is increased in 5th ed, and eldar have ways of pumping out high rates of high strength power when the AP becomes irrelevant. In a word: Scatterlasers.

@Hellfury, have you considerd using a unit of 3 warlocks instead of the 3 wraithguard to escort Eldrad? Roughly the same cost and you can make use of embolden on Eldrad and reroll those pesky double 2's on perils tests. With fortuned saves the squad is very survivable.

Yeah, actually I add 1 warlock to the wraithguard unit to help that out.

With 4th editions toughness majority, wraithguard made themselves quite useful. More so I think than just a warlock entourage. In my experience anyway.

I am sure that is changing in 5th ed though, so the tactic may not be so usable anymore.

Hey Mort,
I am also an Eldar player who started in Second Ed, but I have kept abreast of the rules pretty well. So here goes:

First off, Banshees do need a 5+ to wound a marine, but since power weapons completely ignore armour saves, they quite effective against high armour units like marines and terminators. The "Doom" farseer psyker power is very helpful here as it will allow you to re-roll your wounds against the target unit. Unfortunately the banshee mask is not quite as broken as it was in 2nd ed; You don't get to make your opponent have 0 weapon skill (or was it -1 attack?). The war shout ability can help here if you like that feel: it can reduce the WS of the opponent by one, which means you need 3+ to hit a marine, *BUT* the damn marine needs to fail a leadership test, and they won't.

As was mentioned Armour is either ignored or taken at full, apparently GW decided that adding negative numbers was too hard for the target demographic, so (almost) no more modifiers to anything.

Second, Scorps are shockingly useful even against marines, but especially against horde. 4 attacks on the charge (and something like 6 for the properly tooled exarch) is great at thinning out hordes of tyranids (not the new army any more either!).

Warpspiders have changed a lot, no more template, no more initiative tests to get tangled up in monofilament wire etc. means that they are actually better at taking out things like light tanks and TMCs (wounding on 4+ against a TMC is pretty cool), however they don't get the chance to autokill multiwound models either :( For those of you, who don't know, it used to be that all unsaved monofilament wire wounds, i.e. warpspiders and harlequin's kisses, caused instant death regardless of number (and lots of stuff had two wounds in 2nd Ed, including most orks). Also they didn't roll to wound but required a test against initiative, with a modifier of -1 or -2 depending on partial or fully under template.

Wraithguard are good now, IMHO, simply because they are only tough Eldar unit. A fortuned squad in cover is not going anywhere soon. I think they've basically getting better with each edition since 3rd.

For Dire Avengers, read the rules for blade storm, and then read the Run rule. Also, the DA exarch can be setup to make it so that DAs are quite good at sticking around in close combat. The 5+ invulnerable save provided by a shimmer shield, plus the -1 A provided by distract that dedicated assault units, like gene stealers or assault marines are losing a lot of their advantages. Now, a 1 attack strength 3 dire avenger isn't really going to do much back, but they can hang around until you can redeploy your banshee, or avatar, or wraithlord or something.

Also, since eldar really actually have tanks compared to 2nd ed (as opposed to rules with no models or models with no rules ), the style of play is very influenced by which and how many skimmers you take.


Lastly, you know what I miss? Exodite Dragon knights. Seriously, an Eldar, on the back of a dragon with a laser lance, how cool is that? Even though the knight only got 2 attacks, the dragon got 3. And you could take an awesome tooled up character on the back of beast that got like 10 attacks total.

Oh yeah, and I miss "rank 2" warlocks, and eldar pirate squads with a bunch of melta guns and power fists. And scorpion squads lead by an exarch with a howling banshee mask (So your enemy got no attacks and was hit by a bunch of guys with chainswords that could actually get through power armour). I also miss that D-Cannon, and wraithguard guns would do really wacky stuff when they shot you. Like move you 4d6 inches, possibly straight up in the air

You know what I don't miss? Characters with 7 attacks that had plasma pistols and could effectively whip out 7 strength 7 ap -4 shots. And overpowered assault cannons (oh wait)...

First and foremost, thank you all for answering.

@wuestenfux,

So it sounds like Banshees, despite having only a STR of 3, are still fairly useful against anything since they are useful against MEQs?

For some reason, the "pro Marine" GW bias seems to be worse now than I remember it in the past - would you say that is accurate? I do know that TONS of folks in my area play Marines, but that alone doesn't really prove much.

Scorpions good against horde armies - I shall keep that in mind!

Thank you for the comments!


@Hellfury,

Excellent points about Banshees/Harlies. I will have to keep that in mind.

I am definitely disappointed so far with what I see concerning the Spiders, but I will have to play them a few times to see what other benefits they might provide. Perhaps their mobility helps justify their cost?

I am also happy to hear your endorsement of Exarchs. While they don't provide a leadership bonus that I can see (having the same LD as the Aspects they are with already), and while they only have a single wound, I had a notion that their WS/BS/I/A increases (and sometimes a Save increase) in addition to the possiblity of special abilities/gear, combined would make them still be desirable. Perhaps it depends on the Aspect in question?

In regards to DA's vs. Guardians, by 'implacable', are you referring to them having an Exarch with shimmershield and the "Defend" ability?And when it comes to "Defend", does this only work in the turn when the DA's are assaulting or assaulted, or does it work in every CC round, regardless if there was an assault or not?

3 WG as a bodyguard for a Farseer. Interesting concept. I am in an Escalation league right now, and might consider doing that with my next 250 point increase!

Thank you for the comments!


@der Wiskinator,

I shall definitely have to remember the "Doom" card against higher Toughness opponents that Banshees assault. I guess 5+ with a re-roll isn't too shabby. I definitely saw that the Banshee mask was toned-down, and I am cool with that. I guess I was just shocked to see them sitting at STR 3, but with power weapons. I know it was a long time ago when I played, but STR 3 back then seemed relatively useless! I understand, though, that times have changed.

Bladestorm + Run rule... am I missing something perhaps? Can they run then Bladestorm or something? Maybe I am missing something.

Exodite Dragon Knights! Ha! Yes, I remember some folks doing some conversions with some Eldar and WHFB cold-ones. Those were nifty.

One thing I remember very much from 2nd was the infamous Vortex Grenade. I hated it. I remember I started equipping a Hawk exarch with one, but I wouldn't use it UNLESS my opponent used one first. I know they eventually added Vortex detonators, but still... annoying.

One thing I wish GW would do is create a 5th edition Craftworld book. To me, with Chaos having multiple demons, Marines having tons of different stylized chapters, etc, a Craftworld book makes sense. I am not neccessarily looking for any sort of huge bonuses or benefits for them, but I like the idea of characterful, different craftworld forces.

Thanks for the comments!

Mort wrote:I am definitely disappointed so far with what I see concerning the Spiders, but I will have to play them a few times to see what other benefits they might provide. Perhaps their mobility helps justify their cost?

I certainly think it helps justify the cost. I think it is important to keep in mind that the latest eldar codex is a 4th ed codex and will be seeing some revisions in that area in a couple years regarding issues like that.

Mort wrote:I am also happy to hear your endorsement of Exarchs. While they don't provide a leadership bonus that I can see (having the same LD as the Aspects they are with already), and while they only have a single wound, I had a notion that their WS/BS/I/A increases (and sometimes a Save increase) in addition to the possiblity of special abilities/gear, combined would make them still be desirable. Perhaps it depends on the Aspect in question?

It is pretty dependent on certain aspects, yes. Take shining spears as an example. You would only want to take the exarch power of 'skilled rider' if you expect to see alot of dangerous terrain you might have to cross with them, while th exarch power of 'Withdraw' is nearly compulsory due to being able to remove the unit out of combat after it assaults and be able to make them effective and assault again on your next turn.

Mort wrote:In regards to DA's vs. Guardians, by 'implacable', are you referring to them having an Exarch with shimmershield and the "Defend" ability?And when it comes to "Defend", does this only work in the turn when the DA's are assaulting or assaulted, or does it work in every CC round, regardless if there was an assault or not?

Yes. Yes, every round of assault. [edit] It is also arguable that every round a squad is locked in combat with DA, that the enemy loses a cumulative 1 attack each round they are engaged with the DA, to a minimum of one. Its a contentious issue, but many believe this to be true.[/edit]

Mort wrote:Bladestorm + Run rule... am I missing something perhaps? Can they run then Bladestorm or something? Maybe I am missing something.

You use bladestorm on the turn they are in range. Most units wont be able to assault you on their turn. On your next turn, you maneuver another 6" AWAY from the target unit. If the target unit has the ability to move 12" in a turn, then run another D6" away (since you cannot fire this round). Next turn you blade storm again. This keeps them as a shooting unit and out of CC as much as possible.

Its key to keep in mind that volume of fire in 5th ed is really what will win alot of battles in theory due to how much cover is being promoted. AP weapons wont matter as much anymore so high rates of fire will be king. Direavengers have that in spades, so keep them out of CC and they will continue to work as Isha intended.

Well, Banshees excel against Termies (small squads). Everything that hits back hurt them.
I prefer Harlequins (all with kisses and one upgraded to a Shadowseer). They can kill everything that's alive.
In the 5th ed, rending got nerfed. To compensate this, doom the unit the Harlies is charging.

Mort wrote:So it sounds like Banshees, despite having only a STR of 3, are still fairly useful against anything since they are useful against MEQs?

Untrue. While they are good at killing heavily armored units like marines and terminators, they are rather bad at killing horde units like orcs or termagants. The reason is that while they will kill the same number of each (more or less), there are far less marines and terminators than there are orcs or termagants. So for the points you are spending on the banshees, you get good returns on the tough targets and minimal returns on the horde units. Then the horde units get return attacks and do a lot of damage to the banshees.

In the case of scorpions, they get more attacks at a higher strength than banshees do. However, their attacks allow the enemy to take armor saves. Against marines (who save on 3+) or terminators (who save on 2+) this means that while they cause more wounds, armor saves will make it so that very few of the enemy die. On the other hand, when fighting horde units that tend to have low or no saves at all, the greater number of attacks and higher strength mean a lot more wounds are caused to the enemy over all. Then if there are any enemy models left to attack back, the 3+ armor on the scorpions (vs the 4+ on the banshees) means that fewer eldar die.

I am definitely disappointed so far with what I see concerning the Spiders, but I will have to play them a few times to see what other benefits they might provide. Perhaps their mobility helps justify their cost?

They are one of the fastest units in the game, but the question you have to ask is 'what do they do once they get there?' All in all, I'm not a fan of spiders since 2nd edition.

I am also happy to hear your endorsement of Exarchs. While they don't provide a leadership bonus that I can see (having the same LD as the Aspects they are with already), and while they only have a single wound, I had a notion that their WS/BS/I/A increases (and sometimes a Save increase) in addition to the possibility of special abilities/gear, combined would make them still be desirable. Perhaps it depends on the Aspect in question?

To exarch or not to exarch is dependent on the aspect and what you want them doing. Dire avengers require an exarch. The abilities he brings to the squad (aka blade storm) are just so good that you would be stupid not to take him. Striking scorpion exarchs are also required due to the ability to get a power fist (the only place in the whole army where you can). Banshee, reaper, hawk, and spider exarchs are all useful and good, but not so good as to be more or less required (although hawks are so bad that I don't know what you would do with them without an exarch). Fire dragon exarchs are a waste since they don't bring anything useful to the squad that couldn't done by just adding more dragons to the squad.

One thing I wish GW would do is create a 5th edition Craftworld book. To me, with Chaos having multiple demons, Marines having tons of different stylized chapters, etc, a Craftworld book makes sense. I am not necessarily looking for any sort of huge bonuses or benefits for them, but I like the idea of characterful, different craftworld forces.

This is an idea that I'm on a crusade to get out of peoples' heads. They put out a craftworld book in 3rd edition and it was one of the worst things they ever did to the game (other than all the marine sub codex books). All it did was shift around selections in the force organization chart so that people could make all kinds of stupid broken lists. They also gave them all kinds of powerful special rules that didn't come with any significant draw backs or additional point costs to the units. All in all it was tragic. It was also completely unnecessary. The codex then (just like the one now) has a huge amount of room to make armies themed however you like. You want Sam-Hann, take lots of jetbikes and grav tanks. You want Ianyden (I know I butchered the spelling on that one...the ghost world) take wraithguard and wraithlords a plenty. If you want some other theme, just build it out of what the codex has to offer. There is no need to introduce game breaking special rules and throw the force org chart out the window.

I agree with phoenix on the craftworld book, just use the options in the codex to create whatever army you'd like.

Also, I think that if you are taking Shining Spears, the Exarch with Skilled Rider is very important. In 5th Ed, every time you charge a unit in cover you are (by definition) moving through difficult terrain in your assault phase, and on a jetbike that means a dangerous terrain test! So really, I expect to be taking one a turn, every turn after the first.

Also, don't forget that a banshee with executioner is basically as good as a scorpion with a fist, except she doesn't strike last.

One minor thing, Exarch are in danger. They can no longer be hidden in the squad, since the armor saves are distributed among the squad members and so she might be forced to make a separate save.

Fire dragon exarchs are a waste since they don't bring anything useful to the squad that couldn't done by just adding more dragons to the squad.

Once agan Phoenix, I used to agree with this statement however with 5th Ed I'm reviewing my stance on this.

Vehicles as pill boxes in cover mean the Exarch has gone up in my estimation with his crack shot ability.

No cover saves from the exarchs shots.

It might make adding one to my old 5 man Dragon squad worthwhile.

Yeah the firedragon exarch is no-brainer in 5th.

The new model points at you, like he's saying, "Hey you idiot, why did you give me the heavy flamer, when the Firepike is a no-brainer now!"

Actually, he's probably just as good with a regular old meltagun.

Phoenix wrote:Untrue. While they are good at killing heavily armored units like marines and terminators, they are rather bad at killing horde units like orcs or termagants. The reason is that while they will kill the same number of each (more or less), there are far less marines and terminators than there are orcs or termagants. So for the points you are spending on the banshees, you get good returns on the tough targets and minimal returns on the horde units. Then the horde units get return attacks and do a lot of damage to the banshees.

So basically, Banshees are better against armies with traditionally better armor. Against horde-type forces (Bugs and Orks, for example), Scorpions would be a better choice, since they get more attacks and their targets will often have little or no armor save? Gotcha!

I do really like the current Scorpion figs, and am anxiously looking forward to painting some of them.

Phoenix wrote:
They are one of the fastest units in the game, but the question you have to ask is 'what do they do once they get there?' All in all, I'm not a fan of spiders since 2nd edition.

The more I look at them, the more I can understand why, too. Which is sad, I really do like the models.

I'll probably try them out in a few games, and discover what folks here have warned me about. It will be kinda sad, though, if these end up gathering dust in my minis case.

Phoenix wrote:To exarch or not to exarch is dependent on the aspect and what you want them doing. Dire avengers require an exarch. The abilities he brings to the squad (aka blade storm) are just so good that you would be stupid not to take him. Striking scorpion exarchs are also required due to the ability to get a power fist (the only place in the whole army where you can). Banshee, reaper, hawk, and spider exarchs are all useful and good, but not so good as to be more or less required (although hawks are so bad that I don't know what you would do with them without an exarch). Fire dragon exarchs are a waste since they don't bring anything useful to the squad that couldn't done by just adding more dragons to the squad.

Good reading there, thanks Phoenix. I've seen other comments about the Fire Dragon exarch (responses here and in other threads), and I think he'll be something I have to try out now and again. The other 'not so much required' ones, like the FD exarch, I'll just try out a few times and see how they do.

I definitely see the point of the DA exarch for bladestorm, too. Very cool ability!

Phoenix wrote:
This is an idea that I'm on a crusade to get out of peoples' heads. They put out a craftworld book in 3rd edition and it was one of the worst things they ever did to the game (other than all the marine sub codex books). All it did was shift around selections in the force organization chart so that people could make all kinds of stupid broken lists. They also gave them all kinds of powerful special rules that didn't come with any significant draw backs or additional point costs to the units. All in all it was tragic. It was also completely unnecessary. The codex then (just like the one now) has a huge amount of room to make armies themed however you like. You want Sam-Hann, take lots of jetbikes and grav tanks. You want Ianyden (I know I butchered the spelling on that one...the ghost world) take wraithguard and wraithlords a plenty. If you want some other theme, just build it out of what the codex has to offer. There is no need to introduce game breaking special rules and throw the force org chart out the window.

Excellent and valid concerns, but I think I have to respectfully disagree here. I think they could make such a book (or books) useful and desirable, without going overboard. I know that might often be a difficult thing for GW to do (avoid power-creep), but the way I see it, if they can offer tons of different Marine chapters that provide different options and force configurations, they could do something similar with other armies, including Eldar.

Of course anyone can paint their figs in whatever craftworld colors they want - but that doesn't mean GW should stop with the aesthetic value alone, in my opinion. Creating some new rules variants to add flavor, without over-doing it, just adds that much more character and variety to the army in question. For me, this instills even more attachment to my chosen force. But that's just my paltry two copper's worth.

Thank you for the comments as always, Phoenix!

Mort: I too cut my teeth on 2nd edition eldar. I always liked the "Banshee Exarch + Banshee Mask + Bounding Leap + Combat Drugs + Executioner" combo.

IIRC, that let you charge 30". (Spd6x2 from combat drugs, x2 again from charging, +4 for bounding leap).

Sometimes I miss the wierd interactions of 2nd edition, but the newer editions are much more streamlined and make for smoother games - especially in HTH combat resolution.

Keep in mind that Exarchs need to make separate armour saves if the number of saves is at least as large as the number of squad members. In this way, the Exarch can be picked out. Banshee Exarchs are not really necessary for my liking, the same holds for Fire Dragons, although the Exarch with heavy flamer is tempting.

As already said, Scorpions are good vs Orks. But an Ork Boss with powerclaw can easily decimate an Scorpion squad if he's able to strike back.

The Ork boss is not more devastaing than the Scorpion exarch with his claw. In fact, the exarch has a WS:5 so he is even better than oa ork nob with Klaw.

Brother Bartius wrote:

Fire dragon exarchs are a waste since they don't bring anything useful to the squad that couldn't done by just adding more dragons to the squad.

Once agan Phoenix, I used to agree with this statement however with 5th Ed I'm reviewing my stance on this.

Vehicles as pill boxes in cover mean the Exarch has gone up in my estimation with his crack shot ability.

No cover saves from the exarchs shots.

It might make adding one to my old 5 man Dragon squad worthwhile.

Well, lets look closer at this and really crunch it down. What do you get from the exarch? You pay the points for a dragon, you pay the points for the upgrade and you pay the points for crack shot. How many points is that..(I don't have a codex handy)? I'm making the assumption that its at least the price of 2 dragons...probably more. Trying to pull numbers from memory, 16 for a dragon, 12 for exarch, 10 for crack shot = 38...someone check that please.

So, the chance to damage a vehicle looks something like this:
Chance to hit * Chance to get though armor * Chance to fail cover save
We can rearrange this slightly for our purposes using the commutative property (or was it the multiplicative property) to be:
Chance to hit * Chance to fail cover save * Chance to get though armor

Now, for comparison purposes, both the exarch and the regular fire dragons have the same chance to get though armor (or wound) because they have identical weapons (fusion guns), so we can ignore that portion of the equation.

So looking at Chance to hit * Chance to fail cover save, we get the following results for each

Fire dragon => (4/6) * (1/2) = .33
Exarch => (5/6) * (1) = .83

If the targets are not in cover

Fire Dragon => (4/6) * (1) = .66
Exarch => (5/6) * (1) = .83

So for damage causing purposes, the exarch is worth ~ 2.5 normal dragons when shooting at targets in cover due to both his increased BS and the fact that he ignores cover. So now the question is, is he worth it. The answer may not be so simple. First off, it appears that his effectiveness verses points spent is slightly in his favor when considering just offence (I think the total cost of the exarch ends up being 38 points and the cost for 2.5 dragons is 40). In the case of defense, he represents fewer models in the squad (so the unit tends to be easier to kill) but he also has a better armor save, which could prove useful in preventing casualties. The exarch also takes up less space in the squad. So if you are looking to pack a squad into a flacon, and you already have 6 dragons, but you want more offensive power, then upgrading a dragon to an exarch is certainly the right way to go.

I, myself, personally, find that 5-6 regular dragons tend to get the job done for me (although admittedly I haven't played a whole lot of 5th edition games yet). If you are finding that they just don't cut it for you (and cover is what's causing the issue) then the exarch may help out. Otherwise, adding in more dragons is probably the best way to go.

The exarch with crackshot costs 12+5 more than a normal FD. So, the question is, is he better than 2 FD's to be "cost effective" in your equation. You make a valid point but I would take one exarch in lieu of 2 additional FD's.

I'm agreeing more with Darrian in this version.

Previously the exarch brought nothing to the party.

Now he's actually got reasons to take him.

Whether you find this useful enough is an individual's preference.

It sounds a bit like he might be good, but the question is really if the unit needs him or not. If the unit is already rather reliable, then is there any point spending more points to make them slightly better? No point in adding him to the unit if they can already get the job done.

Anyways. People where discussing DA's a while ago, and I have been trying to figure out what to give the Exarch for a while now. Bladestorm is a given after reading the above tactics. But what about defend? Good skill, but the price for the Exarch is going up rather fast. Same thing about the PW and shield. Its good if you get attacked by something that ignores armor, but pricy and not that effective for anything else. So what to do? I am thinking of maxining shooting only. Cheaper, but in danger if assaulted, so I would need to keep a CC unit somewhere closeby to countercharge if needed.

I choose to buy bladestorm and dual guns on my DA exarch.

The reason I have moved away from outfitting my exarch for h2h is that most units that are going to assault my DA's are so much better in h2h than my DA's that the upgrades do not matter for me. DA's usually hit on 4 but wound on 5 so they are just not efficient at causing wounds. Exarch upgrades just don't change that equation much.

Yeah, I am thinking the same thing. Sure, he can cut up some Assault Marines or something if they are assaulted, but the chances of the unit winning the combat still seems very slim, even with Defend.

The point of the dire avenger hand to hand upgrades is to keep them alive, not to make them good at hand to hand. In general, when you buy defend and a shimmershield, you are focusing on defense. The idea is that with the avenger's fairly (although not incredibly) short range, they are likely to end up in hand ot hand. If they don't have any upgrades, they are going to die and die fast. If you have given them the afore mentioned upgrades then they become much more difficult to kill and can tie up enemy units in hand to hand till a real assault unit gets there to finish things off.

So if this is the sort of role you find avengers would fit into in your army, then go for the hand to hand powers. If you find that the avengers don't end up in hand to hand (someplace they don't belong in the first place) then there is no need to buy them.

Regardless, no matter what you give them, they will never be "good" in hand to hand, but you can spend the points to keep them from being bad.

der Wiskinator wrote:
Also, don't forget that a banshee with executioner is basically as good as a scorpion with a fist, except she doesn't strike last.

The Scorpion gets one more attack though (Possibly 2), and against MC's, the Scorpion is better.

Granted, the Scorps are a bit slower because they don't fleet.

I was looking at the Eldar Codex and it struck me that a Fire Dragon Exarch isn't a complete waste when armed with the Dragon's Breath Flamethrower: Particularly if he has the Tank Hunter and Crack Shot powers.

While the Ignore Cover part of Crack Shot is superfluous, re-rolling to wound with a Heavy Flamethrower is nasty. It seems to me that this configuration is designed to make Fire Dragons useful against Orks where you run out of vehicles to toast after a while, and need to burn Orks more efficiently.

I am not sure that the 15 points spent on tankhunter is that good a buy for the squad if you are using the flamer.

Well, since this thread seems to be about all different Eldar units I'll take the oppertunity to ask about the Harlequins.

Are they still a better option than Scorpions and Banshees in 5:th? And if that is the case (most of the time at least), how do you use them? From my point of view the Shadowseer seems like a must. Without him they could easily be shot to pieces. The Troupe Master is a bit expensive but still good with a powerweapon. The Death Jester however seems a bit pointless.

I am guessing smallish units with equiped mostly with the Harlequins Kiss?