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This came up the other day and I'm not certain if everyone else has caught wise to it yet - but the combination of the way the rules read in 5th...Krak Grenades are STR 6+d6 close combat attacks that thusly count as rending attacks in the hands of the Death Company. Since the death company says "all close combat attacks are rending" So its this really RAW legal O.o rending nades against land raiders.

Grenades powered by anger do more damage

My BA buddy will be delighted to hear about this one. I guess really, as far as backwards compatibility goes, there aren't that many issues with the new edition, although it'll be interesting to see how this actually affects game play, if at all.

its not that good DC are normally Str 5 when they charge its mainlt just for land raiders.

I'm going to go with a "no" on this one. Without referencing the rulebook, I'd say that grenades are "special" close combat attacks, and not the kind that would qualify for rending.

Wow. The new rules must be pretty good if you have to reach this far to find problems (and man is this a reach).

But death company say ALL close combat attacks (this includes special ones)

Red_Lives wrote:But death company say ALL close combat attacks (this includes special ones)

Which means it's not even worth argueing about. Some people will see the game as set of conditions satisfied by RAW, and try to find every loophole, and see nothing wrong.

Others will think about it, not care that "all cc attacks are rending", and decide that, no, death company grenades are made better simply by a crazy pissed off guy pulling the pin.

This isn't an arguement about rending grenades, it's the eternal "RAW trumps everything else" debate.

Carry on.

So a guy that can rend stuff apart can't be a bit better when tossing a grenade at a tank, like say ripping a hatch off or getting to a weak spot on a tank so the grenade is more effective? Not saying this is RAW or whatever but it makes sense to me to a degree.

Also of note, Tyranid FAQ states that MCs with rending claws get to add D3 for each 6 rolled on the pen. A completely different topic but does show that GW intends to let rending stack with other special rules/attacks.

Yet in that same FAQ it states that things like bio-plasma DO NOT get rending if the MC or model has it "because these abilities have their own rules". So they don't stack in every instance, only where specifically stated.

So Bio-Plasma is a specific exception in that FAQ. Death Company do not have "Bio-Plasma", but rather, all attacks made by the Death Company have rending per their unit entry, and there is nothing in the grenade rules to specify that rending does not stack, so by RAW, (which is what the OP asked) it appears that the Death Company's grenades rend.

Red_Lives wrote:But death company say ALL close combat attacks (this includes special ones)

Oh, please. Angry grenades. Please. Don't be that guy. I even have DC, and I think this nerdtarded.

i dont think a grenade of any type is a close combat attack its a grenade!

It's no more silly than "angry bolt pistols" or "angry chainswords". Face it...the Death Company aren't given any weapons which justify their rending damage.

So it's just as silly for them to rend with one weapon as with another.

i see nothing wrong with this rule for Death Company ... you get one attack with a Grenade this is because the Grenade must be fixed inplace to maximises the damage ... any one in DC wants to fix a grenade in place has the chance of smashing a hole with the grenade

... as an eldar player whos just found out that swooping hawks really can sky leap each turn i find it hard to blieve that GW won't also back this

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Red_Lives wrote:But death company say ALL close combat attacks (this includes special ones)

Oh, please. Angry grenades. Please. Don't be that guy. I even have DC, and I think this nerdtarded.

As i said previously it would RARELY come up since its only good against 14 rear armor vehicles (land raiders) Since the DC normally has 4 STR 5 attacks when they charge which can only glance AV 14. So i figured if i were to use Kracks it would be A SINGLE str 6 attack with rending, which can pen armor 14. And whats so hard to believe they are really mad when they slam that grenade on? Remember these guys do foam at the mouth. And otherwise kracks are useless for them.

I don't think a grenade is a cc attack because just having a grenande and a pistol doesn't give you an extra +1 attack. It would if it was a cc-ish weapon.

A grenade attack is a grenade attack.

So a grenade is NOT a close combat attack then?

Valhallan42nd wrote:
Oh, please. Angry grenades. Please. Don't be that guy. I even have DC, and I think this nerdtarded.

Hi, please read and abide by the rules for posting in YMDC: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate

Alright, if grendades benefited from special rules, it would state so in their description in the rule book. It is illogical to assume this special rule applies to grenade without that notation in the rules. Assume the rules are exclusionary, not permissive.

Also, don't be that guy.

Red_Lives wrote:As i said previously it would RARELY come up since its only good against 14 rear armor vehicles (land raiders) Since the DC normally has 4 STR 5 attacks when they charge which can only glance AV 14. So i figured if i were to use Kracks it would be A SINGLE str 6 attack with rending, which can pen armor 14. And whats so hard to believe they are really mad when they slam that grenade on? Remember these guys do foam at the mouth. And otherwise kracks are useless for them.

See, this is what I'm thinking. Okay, yeah, they can get rending on their Krak grenades - but how much more of an advantage does it give them? Some, but certainly not enough for me to complain about. With the 5E nerf of rending, it just doesn't bother me.

Red_Lives wrote:So a grenade is NOT a close combat attack then?

No, it's not. Otherwise, you'd be using the model's attacks characteristic. And you'd be able to use it against infantry.

This action is assaulting a vehicle with a grenade, which can be considered its own separate category of action.

I see it as an abstraction to allow for the use of their old powerfist/power-axe models.
I think it fits both both in story and in mechanics.
I mean really, it's a vampire legion that carries the psychic rage from a 10,000 year dead winged Primarch
yeah, I can see 'angry grenades'

It IS a close combat attack. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to use it when assaulting a vehicle. Otherwise the rule "Armor penetration in close combat" section would not be able to be used - and grenades would not hit the rear armor of a vehicle automatically.

There are far sillier things in 40K that are also legal. Getting worked up about grenades used by a single unit in a single army seems like a mountain-molehill situation.

Remember the reason they have rending, Its to represent the mix of weapons in the unit, i.e the 3 power fists and two power weapons mixed in with the other guys with chain swords and pistols. So yeah i can see the "krak Grenades" haveing rending since in all honesty its more likly the guy with the power fist taking the rear hatch off. I mean back in the old day on average the tank would have been takeing 12 to 15 re-rollable str 9 hits from the same unit, i don't think 7 or 8 str6 re rollable rending hits are any worse haha.

It's not a close combat attack, because it's not listed as a close combat weapon. It's wargear. Wargear with special abilities, such as being able to blow up vehicles in a certain specified way, among other things.

Not all things that happen in assault are close combat. Heck, not everything that happens in close combat is necessarily close combat (psychic ability, for example). The assumption is that a grenade is close combat so that there can be an argument that the rending rules apply. However, there is no reason to think this assumption is true. If you think about it, there are a lot of reasons to think it isn't.

Among them: You don't use the regular A of a model when using a grenade. You don't use the regular S of a model when using a grenade. You don't get a +1 to attacks at any time if you have a grenade as your other weapon. So, attacking a vehicle with a grenade isn't subsumed by close combat attack. It's its own category of action, which I like to call "attacking a vehicle with a grenade." If the Death Company rules said that rending applies when the Death Company attacks with grenades, I'd agree that this is so.

[Dbl post]

It's its own category of action, which I like to call "attacking a vehicle with a grenade."

Do you have a Rule and Page number to support this claim?

There are LOTS of different close combat weapons that behave differently. Pistols can shoot in the shooting phase but they also give +1 attack if you have 2 of them.
I don't think there is a special category of action called "shooting a vehicle in close combat with a pistol"

Some CC weapons only allow 1 attack, some can be used in shooting and close combat (Singing spear for the Eldar warlocks for example)

I guess i just see these as another type of close combat weapon that gives special attack bonuses.
its really that different from a Power fist that Doubles your Str, but doesn't allow for +1 attack for an extra weapon (unless you have to)
this particular weapon gives you S6 but only 1 attack.

If you can give some actual rules quotes to support your claim, you'd have a much better argument.

As far I can tell, by RAW you can get away with this. You won't make many friends doing it though.

Delduwath wrote:

Do you have a Rule and Page number to support this claim?

If you can give some actual rules quotes to support your claim, you'd have a much better argument.

Ok, how about this:
1) Pg 36: Under "who can fight" and "who strikes first": box labeled "Grenades": "Grenades...are generally used as part of an assault." Goes on to describe Assault and Defensive grenades and their effects in assault. No mention of Krak or Melta bombs

2) Pg 42: Close Combat Weapons. Broken down into "Normal Close Combat Weapons" and "Special Close Combat Weapons" No mention of grenades being a close combat weapon there.

Pg 42: Rending. "If a model is armed with a RENDING CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON (emphasis mine) rolls a 6 on any of its rolls to wound...etc.

Finally, Pg 63: Under "Assaulting Vehicles" Grenades have their box of rules specifically for how they interact with vehicles. "Each model may make one attack, etc." Supplies specific rules for grenades in that situation.

Taken together, Rending only applies to Rending Close Combat Weapons, of which a Grenade is not listed. And Grenade effects against vehicles are listed in their own rules section, and have their own rules that govern their use, on page 63.

I think that shows sufficient proof that DC don't have rending grenades.

Great, Now we can get into a RAW discussion about this.

Rending only applies to Rending Close Combat Weapons, of which a Grenade is not listed.

Just because grenades aren't listed doesn't mean that they aren't/can't be rending. NO weapons are listed there so by your logic NO weapons are rending because no weapons are listed.

1) Pg 36: Under "who can fight" and "who strikes first": box labeled "Grenades": "Grenades...are generally used as part of an assault." Goes on to describe Assault and Defensive grenades and their effects in assault. No mention of Krak or Melta bombs

Sure but on page 63. under "Assaulting Vehicles" defensive and assault grenades are explicitly mentioned in addition to Krak grenades and melta bombs Under the assaulting vehicles. So its pretty clear that when assaulting a vehicle that you can use grenades.

As Red_lives mentioned for the BA,

"all close combat attacks are rending"

and

Grenades can be used in an assault (and there for are a Close Combat attack in the assault phase) from page 63.

SO

if a BA makes a close combat attack with a grenade its rending.

I don't have a blood angel army, and don't play against one so the ultimate outcome of this discussion doesn't really affect me.
but it seems pretty cut and dry by RAW