Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5890690.html

a nice bit

Perry's office dismissed the argument.

"The world court has no standing in Texas and Texas is not bound by a ruling or edict from a foreign court," Perry spokesman Robert Black said. "It is easy to get caught up in discussions of international law and justice and treaties. It's very important to remember that these individuals are on death row for killing our citizens."

He should fry!!!!

Wasnt this already a topic here? Or am I imagining it?

poast!

It might have popped up in the thread about the Supreme Court decision on rescinding the pistol ban. I do not think it had it's own thread, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

you know you're in Texas when:

Meanwhile, Randy Ertman, father of Jennifer Ertman, hotly denounced the world court's order for stays.

"The world court don't mean diddly," he said. "This business belongs in the state of Texas. The people of the state of Texas support the execution. We thank them. The rest of them can go to hell."

Adolfo Peña, father of Elizabeth Peña, agreed.

"I believe we've been through all the red tape we can go through," he said. "It's time to rock and roll."

I wish FL had the same stones. How long did they take to finally off Danny Rolling!

Wow, that’s a really short sighted exercise in grandstanding the Texas courts are up to. Pay careful attention to the World Court’s position here, wanting the execution delayed until the petition from the Mexican government is properly considered. Meanwhile your AG stands up and pretends this is an issue of an international court interfering, instead of an international court requesting you act in a lawful manner and properly respond to the concerns of a neighbouring country who’s citizen you’re about to kill.

And it should be reviewed. It’s quite disgraceful that access to consular officials was denied. Imagine if you were in Mexico under arrest and were told you couldn’t access your embassy? Your own president, who’s hardly adverse to the death penalty, requested the situation be reviewed.

But you can’t wait for that… must kill him now!

I don't know the full story here. So did they avoid legal
questions for the sake of expediency? (I mean before this
point). If so, then it's their own fault that they didn't try
the person properly. I agree that murderer-rapists have
no place in society, but if we want to live by rule of law then
perhaps we should live by, um, rule of law.

sebster wrote:Wow, that’s a really short sighted exercise in grandstanding the Texas courts are up to. Pay careful attention to the World Court’s position here, wanting the execution delayed until the petition from the Mexican government is properly considered. Meanwhile your AG stands up and pretends this is an issue of an international court interfering, instead of an international court requesting you act in a lawful manner and properly respond to the concerns of a neighbouring country who’s citizen you’re about to kill.

And it should be reviewed. It’s quite disgraceful that access to consular officials was denied. Imagine if you were in Mexico under arrest and were told you couldn’t access your embassy? Your own president, who’s hardly adverse to the death penalty, requested the situation be reviewed.

But you can’t wait for that… must kill him now!

I live in California, but I have to say, damn right! Besides, humans are not a precious endangered species to be guarded. It's too bad that there aren't any type predatory occurrences on our species.

malfred wrote:I don't know the full story here. So did they avoid legal
questions for the sake of expediency? (I mean before this
point). If so, then it's their own fault that they didn't try
the person properly. I agree that murderer-rapists have
no place in society, but if we want to live by rule of law then
perhaps we should live by, um, rule of law.

They did try him properly, along with thousands of other illegal immigrants who commit crimes in Texas. The Mexican Consul (counsel?) wanted no part of it. He's been through the usual year after year of appeals. The Mexico request was heard by the Supreme Court of the United States. Bushie overstepped his bounds in trying to force a state to abide by an international court when the US federal government itself had no jurisdictional power (clear separation of powers).

I wish they would bring back the death penalty here in Oz... not as deterent but as punishment for the really bad crimes.

Then a again being your 300 pound cellmate's 'life companion' for the rest of your life sounds pretty bad.

Well in most states death row inmates have their own cells. There is a tendency for them to kill each other and try to kill guards.

VermGho5t wrote:It's too bad that there aren't any type predatory occurrences on our species.

There are. The thing is, all of them are seen as bad for humanity and we as a species therefore attempt to prevent and/or eradicate them.
Viruses
Bacteria
Parasites
Dingoes
...and don't forget...
Humans

Self-predation is the cause, apparent result, and, according to some, the correct moral and logical reaction to Self-predation, which essentially is what this case is about.

You forgot three blue loki

*politicians
*lawyers
*girl scouts when selling cookies. Talk about predatory!

Then of course there is the most dangerous threat...Bears!

I'm not really sure why he wasn't given consular access. However, the guy's case went all the way to the Supreme Court. He shot his wad, and he lost. Sebster, you were making some good points in that post. However, the guy is done. He went as far as our law allows (actually, he went a hell of a lot further, which is what landed the idiot in the position he is in now) and now he is going to fry for his crimes. I'm sorry that so much of the world seems to hate the US, but you look me in the eye and tell me that YOUR country gets it right 100% of the time. Should this guy have been advised of consular rights? Of course! Why was he not? I dunno, but if anyone can find it I'd sure like to read it. However, does the fact that he was denied consular access raise any reasonable doubts as to whether or not he did the crimes of which he stood accused? Not according to our Supreme Court, and I would say that they would be better judges than anyone on this forum. And it's not like they haven't made unpopular decisons in the past.

Sebster, I would suggest a sunnier perspective for you to consider. As of August 5th, there will be one less murderer and rapist of children alive. If you have friends or family who are female and underage, prehaps that thought will give you some pause in your keystrokes. It's easy for you to sit there from the comfort of your home and denounce decisions made by people with much more in the way of qualifications and experience in this, their realm of expertise, than you.

As a Texan, I fully support the execution of this "man". He dd the crime, and was reviewed by the higherst court in the land. What more do you want? How about we get some closure for the families of these poor girls. How about we consider and think of them in this as well.

Evidently he actually confessed to the crime.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=04-5928

Medellín, a Mexican national, confessed to participating in the gang rape and murder of two girls in 1993. He was convicted and sentenced to death, and the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals affirmed on direct appeal. Medellín then filed a state habeas corpus action, claiming for the first time that Texas failed to notify him of his right to consular access as required by the Vienna Convention. The state trial court rejected this claim, and the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals summarily affirmed.

There you go. Game, set, match. Got marshmallows?

Popcorn and tequila work?

Outstandingly appropriate suggestion, jfrazell. I approve.

sebster wrote:But you can’t wait for that… must kill him now!

... he commited these crimes in 1993... 15 YEARS AGO

yes... 15 years is really a "must kill him now" isent it??

lets turn the tables. someone rapes and kills your daughter then confesses to the crime. do you want
A. to see him fry
B. let him live while he tries to get off the hook?



it is for things like this that i love texas, and wish the rest of our country would grow a pair.

Seconded!

Um d00ds when Mexico starts executing US citizens without letting them contact our Embassy how we gonna feel?

Gawd I should stay the heck away from this topic...

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Um d00ds when Mexico starts executing US citizens without letting them contact our Embassy how we gonna feel?

depends... if they CONFESS to the crime like this guy did. not to bad, though i think being in a mexican prision is more of a punishment then death

if they are executed over something like an unpaied traffic ticket... then its time to look into it.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Um d00ds when Mexico starts executing US citizens without letting them contact our Embassy how we gonna feel?

Gawd I should stay the heck away from this topic...

REALLY BAD COMPARISON.

If you're not beaten/disappeared, then US citizens, at least along the border states routinely have no access to legal counsel, much less the embassy. And if you think the US government is going to save you in Mexico then you are SADLY mistaken. We have a standing policy at the bank for visiting Mexico. If you have a problem you don't try the embassy-they are viewed as worthless. Our offices there have a private counsel on standby to try to get you out.

Remember, Mexico will no repatriate murderers that have fled to Mexico back to the US, despite treaty. They come to this argument with unclean hands.

jfrazell wrote:They did try him properly, along with thousands of other illegal immigrants who commit crimes in Texas. The Mexican Consul (counsel?) wanted no part of it. He's been through the usual year after year of appeals. The Mexico request was heard by the Supreme Court of the United States. Bushie overstepped his bounds in trying to force a state to abide by an international court when the US federal government itself had no jurisdictional power (clear separation of powers).

Except you're not telling the whole truth. There is an additional submission before the supreme court, due for review in the next few months. The International Court requested a stay until that submission was reviewed.

grizgrin wrote:I'm not really sure why he wasn't given consular access. However, the guy's case went all the way to the Supreme Court. He shot his wad, and he lost. Sebster, you were making some good points in that post. However, the guy is done. He went as far as our law allows (actually, he went a hell of a lot further, which is what landed the idiot in the position he is in now) and now he is going to fry for his crimes. I'm sorry that so much of the world seems to hate the US, but you look me in the eye and tell me that YOUR country gets it right 100% of the time. Should this guy have been advised of consular rights? Of course! Why was he not? I dunno, but if anyone can find it I'd sure like to read it. However, does the fact that he was denied consular access raise any reasonable doubts as to whether or not he did the crimes of which he stood accused? Not according to our Supreme Court, and I would say that they would be better judges than anyone on this forum. And it's not like they haven't made unpopular decisons in the past.

I'm not sure why you think I don't like the US. I've liked everyone from the US I've met, and hope to travel there in medium term. I think the US, like every country and especially my own given our recent efforts, needs to make sure that the law is followed. The law and everyone's right to fair treatment is, afterall, above everything in keeping society civilised.

Sebster, I would suggest a sunnier perspective for you to consider. As of August 5th, there will be one less murderer and rapist of children alive. If you have friends or family who are female and underage, prehaps that thought will give you some pause in your keystrokes. It's easy for you to sit there from the comfort of your home and denounce decisions made by people with much more in the way of qualifications and experience in this, their realm of expertise, than you.

I don't think it really matters if he set nuns on fire and testified afterwards. You still get a fair trial, and you deserve whatever amount of time is needed for all avenues of your case to be heard.

And the second part is a false appeal to authority. Afterall, there are also people with a lot more in the way of qualifications and experience who are arguing this man deserves a stay of execution.

As a Texan, I fully support the execution of this "man". He dd the crime, and was reviewed by the higherst court in the land. What more do you want? How about we get some closure for the families of these poor girls. How about we consider and think of them in this as well.

Envy89 wrote:

sebster wrote:But you can’t wait for that… must kill him now!

... he commited these crimes in 1993... 15 YEARS AGO

yes... 15 years is really a "must kill him now" isent it??

lets turn the tables. someone rapes and kills your daughter then confesses to the crime. do you want
A. to see him fry
B. let him live while he tries to get off the hook?

And if you kid is arrested and denied proper consul? You'd be okay with him being executed before all legal elements of his case have been properly heard?

it is for things like this that i love texas, and wish the rest of our country would grow a pair.

Yeah, your ability to swagger about and talk about how manly your state is exactly the best measure of

In my home state we've had a constant run of suspected criminals being beaten to death in apparent suicides the night they were arrested. We're so manly we sort the problem out before it ever reaches trial. Or possibly, you know, it might not be all that healthy to gain state pride from killing a guy.

Hah, I was just arguing this with my housemate this evening. Ireland had the death penalty for killing a Garda Síochána up until relatively recently. My Da is a Garda, so I supported it- I hoped it might help to deter people from killing him. It was never used in my lifetime, and eventually we got rid of it. I don't mind too much, my Da is retiring soon.

But some of the comments here are just a bit OTT for me. We're talking about a State taking a life. It might be the life of someone horrible, but it's still a sombre occaision. It's not appropriate in my view to engage in chest beating over it, or to insinuate that it's more manly or less manly or whatever. It's killing a guy, and that's always gotta be taken seriously.

sebster wrote:And if you kid is arrested and denied proper consul? You'd be okay with him being executed before all legal elements of his case have been properly heard?

well i am not married yet, so i do not have kids. BUT i plan on giving them much the same upbringing that i got. teaching morals, and right from wrong and what not. there is a very very good chance that people with a good upbringing will never end up in jail because of the upbringing that they got.

sebster wrote:Yeah, your ability to swagger about and talk about how manly your state is exactly the best measure of

In my home state we've had a constant run of suspected criminals being beaten to death in apparent suicides the night they were arrested. We're so manly we sort the problem out before it ever reaches trial. Or possibly, you know, it might not be all that healthy to gain state pride from killing a guy.

and that is wrong. people derserve a trail. in the case of texas the guy CONFESSED to the crimes and rightfully got a trial.

in the case you mentioned, no trial... HUGE differance.


though there are some people who get a trail and get off the hook because of some hoop they jumped through. it is a sad day to see a case like that.

Well sebster, I look back over it and I may have screwed the pooch on that one. From the last line in your first post, I got the impression you were painting all Americans with a rather bloodthirsty brush:

But you can’t wait for that… must kill him now!

That kinda irked me for reasons irrelevant here. I humbly apologize to you if that was not your intent.

That is not a friendly border in a lot of places, Seb. Americans don't get a lot of due process down there. Hell, the Mexicans (according to my Mexican bro's) don't get due process down there. There's a lot more to it than just this story. Old border, old story.

He may not have been advised of his consular rights, but that's got feth all to do with him doing what he did. I supported that American jerk getting caned down in Singapore years ago, and I thought it was crap that the US was trying to have him tried and punished in the US under US law. If you screw up in a foriegn country, you get what you deserve. I see people do it all the time, b/c I work almost exclusively abroad in undeveloped nations.

He's had 15 years of appeals and trying not to get hisself fried for a crime he confessed to. It went to the supreme court. He's done. As far as appeal to authority, when it comes to the law in the United States, there IS no higher authority than the US supreme court. The decisions they make establish ultimate precedent. Precedent is as strong, and in some instances a lot stronger, than written law b/c it is seen as the interpretation by the Judiciary of the law as written.

As far as some of the commentary about a man's execution needing to be taken seriously, I don't think Mr. Soon-To-Be-Extra-Crispy-Party-Animal there was too sombre about his deeds. No-siree-bob, sounds like he had hisself a grand old time with all his buddies and their new-found "friends".