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I was recently discussing Imperial Guard with a friend when he mentioned how great ratlings will be now that the "sniper" weapon type grants rending, I pointed out to him that it's somewhat balanced by the fact that you don't get as many hits because as far as I can see you roll on BS for sniper weapons now instead of a 2+ like it was in 4th edition.

I quickly started thinking of the assorted sniper squads available and realised something with eldar rangers and pathfinders, the special rule they have isn't actually rending, it is "Any shooting roll to hit of a 6 counts as having AP 1" and obviously for pathfinders it's a 5 OR 6.

This would mean, for 24 points a model you can get a squad of pathfinders who can sit in trees and get a 2+ cover save (since trees got an upgrade to 4+), hit on 3+ and if they roll a 5 or 6 its AP 1, and wound on 4+ and if they roll a 6 its AP 1.

Have I overlooked something in the Eldar 5th edition FAQ or are they just this good for the time being?

No there's no plans that I'm aware of to change them and yes they are this good.

Get more.

They wound on a 4+, not a 2+.

Eldar Pathfinders ARE good and I frequently field 3 small squads of them.

But I don't see them as being uber awesome in the long run. Anything other than guard and tau can best a unit of these guys in close combat in a single phase

Also the abundance of cover in 5th seems to ruin the awesomness of AP1 and AP2 shots :(

shirou wrote:They wound on a 4+, not a 2+.

A yes, I was aware of this, just got a bit overexcited I think

Everything tends to get a 4+ cover save these days... so it really is more of an impossible unit to kill. They will absolutely murder monsterous creatures though... not that they did not do a good enough job before.

I agree that they have the potential of being pretty sweet, they are pretty limited in their roles. If you break it down, to hit, its a 83% chance, and to wound with AP1, its a 33% chance. Together, you're looking at about a 28% chance of a single Pathfinder taking something down with this AP1, not counting thebiklotus's example of cover saves. So, you take four, you're mostly guaranteed 1 kill unsavable wound. So, its rather up to the army builder if this is worth it or not. Again, potent if you're picking off stuff worth tons of points like 'Cron Heavy Destroyers or the like, but not against Orks.

But that's always been the weakness of pathfinders: they're only useful against big, tough stuff and units they can pin.

Cover saves have become more common, but monstrous creatures only benefit from cover if they are 50% obstructed. They can no longer claim cover just by sitting in area terrain, so MCs will benefit from cover less in 5ed than they did in 4ed. Since shooting MCs is quite possibly the pathfinders' most important function, I think they're quite a bit better under the new rules.

Drunkspleen wrote:

shirou wrote:They wound on a 4+, not a 2+.

A yes, I was aware of this, just got a bit overexcited I think

Heh, when I read your initial post, I got a bit excited and went to double check the new rules. I thought I had missed a wonderful change! Alas.

Heyo, here's some mathhammer I did for pathfinders, might be of interest to you.

http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=165073.0

PF's are better than they were, but not the uber unit. Fun, though.

you can doom them, too. Niceness.

They're all well and great until my often ignored Land Speeder Tornado with Heavy Flamer and Multi-Melta fries 3/4 of a squad Silly Eldar players in my area love focusing on other things for some reason

What is really great is that they changed pinning weapons so that you take a test from every weapon that causes an unsaved wound. Lose 2 marines to the sniper shots....make 2 pinning checks. Boo Yah for the win.

I think the best use for Pathfinders in 5th is to park them on your objective(s) in your deployment zone and plink away with them.

I am somewhat confused on combining both the rending rule and the ranger long rifle rule.

Does the pathfinder rule of hitting on a 5+ and gaining AP 1 trump the rending rule of wounding roll of 6 and gaining AP2?

I ask because I am one of the few people who actually do use sniper rifle for the occasional light tank hunting, and this is somewhat contradictory.

For instance, a pathfinder fires his sniper rifle at a landspeeder, rolls a 5+ so he gets to have his shot count as AP1, thus giving him a +1 bonus on the vehicle damage chart.

He then rolls his penetration roll, and rolls a 6. This gives him D3 more strength to the weapon. He rolls a 3, thus giving him 2 more points of strength to the weapon and allowing him to penetrate the landspeeder.

does one have to choose between which advantage he would want? Either the plus one to vehicle damage or the extra D3 strength? Or do you combine both?

That is a really good question. Let's hope Yakface chimes in here and figures this mess out for us. He seems to have unique gift for unscrambling GW rules.

Its kind of convoluted, but I am of the opinion that if you roll a 6 to wound after rolling a 5+ to hit, that the shot counts as AP2, and you get the strength bonus and you forego the 1+ bonus to the vehicle damage chart because the shot now counts as AP2 and not AP1.

They are great until you face Sisters with blessed shells.

Hellfury wrote:Its kind of convoluted, but I am of the opinion that if you roll a 6 to wound after rolling a 5+ to hit, that the shot counts as AP2, and you get the strength bonus and you forego the 1+ bonus to the vehicle damage chart because the shot now counts as AP2 and not AP1.

but you don't roll to wound a vehicle, you roll to penetrate, and on the penetration roll, rending doesn't change the AP value of the sniper rifle at all, it just allows an extra D3 if you roll a 6, so they don't cancel eachother out in any way.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Hellfury wrote:Its kind of convoluted, but I am of the opinion that if you roll a 6 to wound after rolling a 5+ to hit, that the shot counts as AP2, and you get the strength bonus and you forego the 1+ bonus to the vehicle damage chart because the shot now counts as AP2 and not AP1.

but you don't roll to wound a vehicle, you roll to penetrate, and on the penetration roll, rending doesn't change the AP value of the sniper rifle at all, it just allows an extra D3 if you roll a 6, so they don't cancel eachother out in any way.

thats what i was thinking as well.

General Hobbs wrote:What is really great is that they changed pinning weapons so that you take a test from every weapon that causes an unsaved wound. Lose 2 marines to the sniper shots....make 2 pinning checks. Boo Yah for the win.

Really... damn it I must have missed something.... Time to go reread the rules. And here I was just making the other player take one test then I killed 6 of his command squad for his IG.

Im iffy on it personally.

In 4th pathfinders didnt usually have to worry about people in 4+ terrian, and when you did it was hard to move them out and usually took a few turns.

Now in 5th everyone and their mom has a 4+ cover, so sadly I dont think are really going to be the best thing ever.

In my experience, Lash trumps hiding Pathfinders every time. "What cover save?"

In my experience RoW trumps Lash 55% of the time. "I gotta roll 3d6 AND add them together?" After the first wound inflicted from the Perills, the Lash stops.

Darrian13 wrote:In my experience RoW trumps Lash 55% of the time. "I gotta roll 3d6 AND add them together?" After the first wound inflicted from the Perills, the Lash stops.

You have no idea how many players stop using there powers as soon as I explain the Runes of Witnessing to them, that 10 point upgrade is so worth it. As for the help of dooming a unit thats about to be shot by pathfinders with all the cover saves that are being given these days I just bide my time and wait for someone to get sick of my shooting then show them what the pathfinders are really good at.

I have a very good idea how many players stop using their powers.