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Now this is just based on one test game, but my opponent fielded 4 squads of 8 spinegaunts without number in a Recon D3+2 counters mission. The without number gaunts were a huge problem to properly keep them from scoring objectives as the mission dragged on to turn 7.

Some particular issues made them extra obnoxious to deal with:
Falling back units are scoring(?), so if the gaunts come in on the table say during turn 5 when the synapse is busy romping around in the opponents DZ, a canny tyranid commander can make them flee 2d6 + 1d6 fleet towards an available objective on the failed IB test on turn 6.
In take and hold where your home counter is sitting 12" from your own board edge, a tyranid player with 2nd turn is almost guaranteed to contest this objective even if nearly wiped out completely. Gaunts enter the board and fleet 1d6 towards the objective, in order to get within 3" they will need a 3+ on the fleet.

Normally I would be in the 'buy more models' crowd, but as the game got towards the final turns, I started running into some real PITA situations where 1-2 gaunts are still sitting on an objective and killing them will just put a brand new squad onto an objective further back while MC's shift to contest this one.

As I played this list I just kept wishing my opponent had played by conventional advice and just used 13 regular gaunts so I could kill them and move onto something else.

Leave the 1-2 gaunts on the objective, and run up and contest it. Kill the MCs (They ain't comin' back) and take the objective(s) they control. As long as you just contest the gaunt controlled objectives and take away the MC controlled objectives, you win.

I think you're oversimplifying the issue.

Firstly, in what turn do you run into the tyranid deployment zone to contest their objectives while killing all of their forward MCs?

Turn 5? Game continues on 3+
Turn 6? Game continues on 4+
Turn 7? Game has a 66% chance of being over before now

Secondly, for what army is running into the tyranid deployment zone while killing all of their MCs really a viable option?

Falling back units claiming/contesting objectives seems a bit dodge, but I can't see anything in the book to contradict it.... That's kinda amusing.

Units that are falling back at the end of the game count as destroyed. Destroyed units can't claim objectives. So, that's one less thing to worry about.

Are you implying that it's not possible to run into the Tyranid Deployment Zone and wipe out all the MC's in a single turn with any army?

I believe you sir, are mistaken.

Moz wrote:I think you're oversimplifying the issue.

Firstly, in what turn do you run into the tyranid deployment zone to contest their objectives while killing all of their forward MCs?

Turn 5? Game continues on 3+
Turn 6? Game continues on 4+
Turn 7? Game has a 66% chance of being over before now

Secondly, for what army is running into the tyranid deployment zone while killing all of their MCs really a viable option?

You seem to be forgetting the first 4 turns. Those happen too. Weird, I know.

Don't concentrate fire (other than small arms) on his gaunts. Use EVERY gun that can possibly hurt the MCs to kill the MCs. Unless he's hiding them, you should be able to take down at least a few a turn. And if he IS hiding them, what do you have to worry about anyways?

What army do you play?

All non-MEQ armies.

In this single game I was playing my usual tau which has had decent success against bigbugs in the past. It is not at all adapted to 5e though.

I was using:
Shadowsun
Shas'el (kroot LD10 herder style), CIB, MP

Shas'vre XV8, Airburst (for kicks), TLMP

2x12 FW
2x20 Kroot

2 x 6 Pathfinder
Fish + Disruptionpod

2 Skyray, Disruption pod, Burst cannons, TA

Opponent was simple:
2 dakka tyrant (2 guard ea.), 6 dakkafex, 4x8 WoN spinegaunt.


By the time the devourers were in range (that's turn 2 with run btw) 1 fex was down and both tyrants were wounded and stripped of guard. The game quickly shifted into contest mode as the firewarriors loaded into fish and took off to stay scoring. Late game had a mass of MCs holding the center of the table shifting to contest any unclaimed objectives while WoN gaunts would kill themselves on whatever they could find to respawn themselves backfield on their own objectives.

If fleeing units do not contest, and I will read more on that, it would've been a solid draw.

Also, I am not by any means saying that Without number gaunts are unbeatable. But 8 WoN guants are so much more difficult to deal with than the equivalent 13 spinefist gaunts that the argument of 'Take more models instead' is just ridiculous.

I have been saying this for weeks.

WoN wins a lot more than people expect and is a _lot_ better than the extra gaunt models you would be purchasing. Scoring to the last model makes it really mean. Plus, they do not take extra force org slots.

The turn they arrive they should not need to test for Synapse (they were not on the table at the start of the movement phase - when IB is checked) which lets the score the round they appear.

I use without number in almost every list now. It has only won me games, and never been even a slight problem for me.

And honestly, given the nature of Tyranid troops, this is not really a bad thing. It is actually kind of Fluffy even.

My nid 'dex says that the brood may be brought back into lay at the start of my turn.

It also says that the IB test happens at the start of the movement phase.

My reading of that is that my turn starts BEFORE the movement phase, so my 'gaunts are on the board already when the movement phase starts.

Um...Recon isn't a mission any more.

Shrug.

Your reading is not correct.
Your turn starts with Movement Phase. There is not a Phase before that in the game. The very sentence after the one you mention specifies that they "move on the board" from the Tyranid table edge.
IB is tested when you want to move a unit that is outside of synapse - BEFORE you move them.

As a side note that makes it harder to "slingshot" them across the table, but that is neither here nor there.

I could be wrong here, but I have never asked, nor been asked by, anyone to roll ANYTHING but reserves for a unit that is not on the table at the time.

shrug

Don't get me wrong, I'll be delighted if that's the case !! I'm just putting forward an objection..

Democratus wrote:Um...Recon isn't a mission any more.

It was called Recon in the leaked 5th ed book. Whatever it's called now, it's the D3+2 objectives mission.

Without Number is indeed extremely powerful in Nidzilla builds. Throw away the Genestealers and huge squads of Gaunts for cheap 8-10 man troop squads that never die. The extra points can go into more powerful heavy fexes and/or FA slots.

With marines losing about 1/2 of their long range shooting in the new codex and Falcons being a little easier to kill, this new incarnation of Nidzilla is looking at becoming the stand lone King of 5th Edition.

That's a really bad plan, as you are simply building vulnerable iterative kill points. 2-3 large squads are better.

genestealers are better if they live, but that is a big if that the WoN gaunts do not need.
Large squads simply die INSANELY fast if you ever get them into melee. Which is what gaunts do.
1 large squad. 2 gene (ec, st, one with scuttlers only) and 2 squads WoN (sometimes one in a smaller game) Splits the difference nicely, and it is basically impossible to deny scoring capablity if you go Second.

Lower the numbers if you want, the large squad is the most optional. It helps the least in every game, in my experience, and takes time to move - not a bonus. Points are better spent on things that will be around on turn 5-7.

shrug.

torgoch wrote:That's a really bad plan, as you are simply building vulnerable iterative kill points. 2-3 large squads are better.

The rulebook says no matter what the mission is, if you wipe out your opponent you win the game period. Keep shooting gaunts, it won't take 8 running TMC's long to kill everything on the table.

Scuttling Termagants seem like they could be murderous in the new rules. They're expensive, but it's not like buying large broods is a good idea when Without Number.

What would be really horrendous would be scuttling termagaunts without number, if they could come on the side using the reserve role when they come back...

Without number does not place the unit in reserves, so no flanking when the unit returns to the board sorry.

Yeah I know, pity though >: