Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Two main questions for discussion:

1) Will the fireknife still be the most popular configuration for battlesuits, or will the omni-presence of cover saves change that?

2) Jump-shoot-jump...in general is this still a viable tactic with suits, or has true line of sight pretty much nerfed this?

My two cents:

1) I decided to run the numbers...and got some pretty interesting results (please tell me if something is terribly wrong with my math)
Note: My lists, and therefore my mentality, are always as anti-meq as possible. My normal opponents be Marines, Necrons, and Eldar

Plasma Rifle: 1/2 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) x 1/2 (Meq failing cover save) = 20.8%
Missile Pod: 1/2 (to hit) x 2/1 (# of shots) x 5/6 (to wound) x 1/3 (Meq failing armour save)= 27.8%
Fusion Blaster: 1/2 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) x 1/2 (Meq failing cover save) = 20.8%
Burst Cannon: 1/2 (to hit) x 3/1 (# of shots) x 2/3 (to wound) x 1/3 (Meq failing armour save) = 33.3%

That's right. At range, the numbers say the Missile Pod and Burst Cannon is the way to go assuming the squad you're targetting is sitting in woods/ruins.
Two things though.
- If you're firing with a burst cannon, you're pretty much in range for a rapid-firing plasma rifle. That being said, should you choose to be that close to the enemy in the first place?
- At rapid fire range, the fireknife is still the king.

I normally run plasma/fusion blaster on my HQ suits since my army appears to be a magnet for drop-podding Dreads and deep-striking assault squads.

2) Battlesuits got nerfed with TLOS. Jump-shoot-jump is the bread and butter of battlesuits, they can't act as static firing platforms, that's why the ethereals gave us Broadsides. I think now I'll have to use my suits in a more defensive nature than I'm used to.

A tactic that's been mentioned is JSJ with your devilfish or hammerheads, but I just don't think that's a viable tactic.

Anyways, thanks for sticking with my ramblings.

all you have to do to make sure your suits dont get shot it sit them behind a static hammerhead. you can hide suits behind that and still JSJ. you can also use JSJ to maintain the benifits of cover, while denying it to your opponents. battle suits dont get nerfed nearly as much by this as some other armies. you also dont need to spend any points to give them sheild generators anymore. thats a good thing.

a burst cannon does kill more stuff at range now so youll be seeing those on a lot more suits. if you can still find some way to penetrate high armour saves then you can have the missile pods, otherwise i think your still going to have to have plasma rifles against terminators and MCs.

Yea thats what it comes down to, the Strength and AP of the Burst Cannon is great on Infantry, but that isn't typically what we send our suits after. When that Soulgrinder hits the table, a strength 5 shot just isn't going to cut it, and that is when your AP 1 and high Strength weapons come out to play, especially if your enemy is hiding from your rail guns as tends to happen where I play.

They're nerfed somewhat by TLOS, but they benefit from the new wound allocation rules.

It's really a question of what your terrain is like, and how stringently you interpret TLOS. For example, if you play with lots of solid terrain pieces, you'll have no problem. I know I have seen a lot of this around the FLGS in my area. However, some ruins have windows, which might allow some visibility through them. I'm not clear how TLOS works here. If you can see part of a suit's thigh plate, is that enough?

For a suit heavy list (like I tend to run), there might be a bit less to work with, and things might be tough. I think they're still a must have, at least a few, for almost any list.

Just make sure to talk the terrain over with your opponent beforehand.

I don't like Burst Cannons on Crisis suits. There are a zillion other ways to get S5AP5 in the Tau list, Crisis suits don't strike me as a good one.

I think Fireknife is still the default choice, but it has lost some of its appeal. Not only is cover more plentiful, but there are going to be more cases where wound allocation lets the defender mitigate AP2 shots.

On the other hand, Melta weapons are better than ever, so Fusion Blasters are appealing, especially on Deep Strikers.

Also, as you say, cover is more common, so the Deathrain (T-L MP) is going to be a better choice than it has been. Its range lets it find hard terrain to J-S-J from.

All in all, I think this stuff is pretty minor. It's observable, and worth noting, but I don't think it's going to revolutionize how Crisis suits play.

You need to be able to clearly see a major body part, and if they are obscured they get the cover save based on what they are hidden in. Part of a thigh plate, I'd say no, but able to use the markerlight to fully target the entire leg, I'd say yes, with a 3 or 4 up save.

I agree about Fusion Blasters also, I am torn between Fusion and Plasma, and will have to try both, or field both in the larger games.

Phryxis, how do you run your suits?

That was my original mentality with Burst Cannons too, Fire warriors, Devilfish, Stealth suits etc...S5 AP5 right there. But now, I think the balance is getting tipped towards quantity of shots instead of quality...

My HQ configuration will probably never change, but right now I'm torn between Deathrain and Plasma/Burst on my other suits

I'm warming to the idea of 3 x dual flamer + missile pod. Fire missiles from the back of the army until something reaches the line, hop out and bake. Multi flamers in a unit just have sick firepower now, dirt cheap on XV8's too.

New tagline for 5th edition..

In the grim darkness of the far future, magnets are a necessity!

I run 10 Crisis Suits in 4 units.

HQ w/ 1 Bodyguard: Plasma + Fusion
HQ w/ 1 Bodyguard: Plasma + Missile Pod

Elite 3x: Plasma + Missile Pod
Elite 3x: T-L Missile Pod

I agree that fire volume is becoming more of a focus, but I don't agree that points one towards Crisis suits with Burst Cannons. I'd argue that points one away from Crisis suits at all. Fire Warriors are much more cost effective sources of S5AP5 shooting than Crisis Suits will ever be. If you really want Burst Cannons, I'd take Stealth Suits, since they're smaller, cheaper, and have the ability to hide behind their stealth fields.

Don't underestimate the utility of the Deathrain (T-L MP). They don't seem so great on paper, but they're useful in game. Tau tend to be a list that requires a lot of careful attention to what's going on. Because Deathrains can just sit back and J-S-J from somewhere relatively safe, they give you decent firepower without much micromanagement.

Stealth suits with target arrays 18 shots from the unit if you can add a marker drone you can make the unit BS5 with a hardwired target lock, hardwired multi tracker and markerlight too you can increase the effectiveness of you army.
Fire warrior squads with team leaders armed with markerlights and hardwired target lock and hardwired multi tracker allowing for more marker hits with no drop in fire efficiency of that unit.

What?

Please use capitalization and punctuation in your posts. I have no idea what you're saying after the first "sentence".

Thanks!

I'm still struggling with my Crisis Suit loadout. Plasma is great at close range, as you have a better chance of hitting a unit that won't get a cover save. As Phryxis pointed out, there is a plethora of S5 AP5 shooting in a Tau army, so I like to tool up my Crisis Suits with weapons that you can't get elsewhere. I still can't see putting a flamethrower on a suit; you'll rarely make your points back and if you're close enough to use it, you'll likely lose your suit in the ensuing close combat.

Currently I've got three Fireknives (big squads maximize the use of Markerlight hits) and two Deathrains with Fusion Blasters as the backup weapon. Still not sure what else I want to run.

Iorek wrote:I'm still struggling with my Crisis Suit loadout. Plasma is great at close range, as you have a better chance of hitting a unit that won't get a cover save. As Phryxis pointed out, there is a plethora of S5 AP5 shooting in a Tau army, so I like to tool up my Crisis Suits with weapons that you can't get elsewhere. I still can't see putting a flamethrower on a suit; you'll rarely make your points back and if you're close enough to use it, you'll likely lose your suit in the ensuing close combat.

Currently I've got three Fireknives (big squads maximize the use of Markerlight hits) and two Deathrains with Fusion Blasters as the backup weapon. Still not sure what else I want to run.

I've used flamers before and to great effect. My opponent was a Tyranid swarm army and my suit stayed close to a full squad of Fire Warrior or stealth suits, mopping up whatever they left behind.

Iorek wrote: I still can't see putting a flamethrower on a suit; you'll rarely make your points back and if you're close enough to use it, you'll likely lose your suit in the ensuing close combat.

Whereas my firewarriors and kroot used to exist to pounce on whatever came after the suits in a sacrificial blaze of glory, I'm thinking now the suits are going to be doing the reverse for the troops. Even considering the failsafe detonator in this flamer team. Please do assault them, be my guest!

The Tau guy I play with the most (and the 40k expert of our area) still puts in a Fireknife first to deal with MEQ. A second squad will be Deathrain with BS upgrade. That usually goes after light vehicles or MC. If he takes a third, it is either TL Missle Pod with Flamer, or Missle Pod with TL Flamer, depending how the points go. Yes, the flamers won't see much action, but they are cheap and when they do get used, it is nasty.

And he and I will agree with what the others have said... there are so many ways to get ST5 AP5 shots with Tau (he has put down 72 Fire Warriors before just to annoy us) that the Suits really need to be doing anything but that.

In the first 5th edition tournament I ran my Crisis suit commander as a Shas'o/CiB/plasma/multitracker/shield generator/stimulant injector/Drone controller (single gun drone). Yes is expensive but it was a hobby tournament (no uber power gaming lists) so I wanted him to be beefy. I had an elite slot filled with 3 crisis suits that he was joined up with were armed with Plas/missile pod/tracker , plas/fusion/tracker , missile pod/fusion/tracker.
This odd configuration was not just so I would have a weapon for every job (once i had them with in 12 of a terminator command squad, dropped it to the chaplain) but more importantly, they are unique units for assigning wounds.

I would assign the random bolters to the commander due to his FNP and 4 wounds, He would need to drop to 1 wound to give any VP. I would be able to float about 5 wounds in the squad before I would lose any points and combat effectiveness.

In my up coming tournament I may have 2 squads like this or 1 squad like this and one as TL missilepods/targeting arrays.