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So this is kinda what Ive been thinking. 1500pts of shooty slaaneshi army. This is pretty much the figs that I own except a sorceror and some more NMs. Im still prepping and planning how to put it all together so nothing in the list is set in glue.

So. Is this any good?

Daemon Prince (wings, MoS, LoS) 155

10x Terminators (2x autocannon, 2x PF) 370
10x Terminators (2x autocannon, 2x PF) 370

6x Noise Marines (sonic blasters) 150
6x Noise Marines (sonic blasters) 150

3x Obliterator 225

= 1420

Should I go with a straight slaaneshi list or add some followers of some other chaos god? What+why?

What to add/remove? Too many termies not enough troops? Any and all suggestions is much appreciated!

Well if you're going to run termie squads that big and in a pure Slaanesh army, throw some Slaaneshi icons in there to help them out in CC and to stick with the fluff.

Drop one of the Termie squads and beef up the remaining one with combi-weapons.
This gives you points to add another NM squad. Scoring units are important these days.

wuestenfux wrote:Drop one of the Termie squads and beef up the remaining one with combi-weapons.
This gives you points to add another NM squad. Scoring units are important these days.

I agree. I've found the RAC term squad to underperform. It makes a decent counter charge unit, but foot-sloggin terms are kind of slow. Plus, you'll probably never have them run because of the auto cannon. Although my term squads are usually 3-5 men as well. 10 is a lot of points, but could be deadly.

I do agree that you need more troops however. You could drop one, add combi weapons and an additional RAC on the one term squad.

On another note, do you have one squad of three oblits or do you deploy them seperately? (I would use them seperately)

That DP looks a little lonely as well. In a list like this that DP is going to be taking heavy fire if he is ever caught off guard or even in poor cover (He won't really benefit from cover anyway). I'd say drop a termie squad and add another DP. With the remaining points you can add in another Noise Marine squad. Then use the left over 30 points to equip 6 of your other termies with combis. Then your termie squad can be very differently equipped (like PF/Combi and PF/Norm) to be able to really take advantage of the new wound allocation rules.

Edit: When I was doing the math I gave that extra Noise marine squad a Blast Master. I thought you were doing that already but now that I look again I realize you aren't. If you like it keep if, if you don't you've got 40 pts to play with.

Thanks for all the suggestions! Much appreciated. So this is what Im thinking atm.

Adding another squad of NMs it is. Not completely decided as to how to equip it. Some say run a few without sonics as cannon fodder, but Im more inclined to give em all sonic blasters. Thoughts?

Id like to keep one 10man termie unit with the two RACs. The range they have intrigues me. Adding some combis sounds good. What sorta combi weapons do people suggest and what should I use them for?

Im thinking about adding another oblits and play with two 2-man units. Otherwise Im thinking one 1-man unit and one 2-man unit or three 1-man units. Thoughts?

Not sure if I should add another DP or more NMs after that. Or something else.

what is going to take objectives? do you plan on just sitting on an objective and contesting the other ones?

I would ditch one squad of termies and split the other into two groups of 5 and load them all out with combi plasma + MoS

I'd then use the leftover points to take 2 more squads of NM.

one DP is a little lonely, at 1750 I'd take another one.

Sushicaddy wrote:what is going to take objectives? do you plan on just sitting on an objective and contesting the other ones?

I would ditch one squad of termies and split the other into two groups of 5 and load them all out with combi plasma + MoS

I'd then use the leftover points to take 2 more squads of NM.

one DP is a little lonely, at 1750 I'd take another one.

You are suggesting 4 squads of NM. Everyone else is suggesting adding one more squad of NMs to a total of three. Isnt that enough in a 1500 pts list? If Im not adding a second DP I might be able to squeeze in a fourth NM squad. To tired to think now so Ill do the math tomorrow

Also. Dropping the 2 RACs for plasmas. Good idea? Feels like Im loosing the shootyness (as in range) which I guess I can live with. But what do I gain?

Sorry for newbish questions...

I can kill a 6 man squad pretty easily, you need as many as you can get to take and hold objectives. Troops are the bread and butter of this game, and CSMs have some of the best troop choices in the game.

what you gain from Combi-plasma is a rain of death when they teleport in. all marks act as teleport homers, so if you teleport your termies in off the DP for example, while the enemy s trying to cutt him off and destroy hi you can have two squads of combi-plas termies show up firing off 10 str 7 ap 2 shots each, which will kill just about anything. then you charge what ever is left next round, easily killing MEQ's with powerweapons and I5.

RAC is kinda ho-hum compared to that.

Sushicaddy wrote:I can kill a 6 man squad pretty easily, you need as many as you can get to take and hold objectives. Troops are the bread and butter of this game, and CSMs have some of the best troop choices in the game.

what you gain from Combi-plasma is a rain of death when they teleport in. all marks act as teleport homers, so if you teleport your termies in off the DP for example, while the enemy s trying to cutt him off and destroy hi you can have two squads of combi-plas termies show up firing off 10 str 7 ap 2 shots each, which will kill just about anything. then you charge what ever is left next round, easily killing MEQ's with powerweapons and I5.

RAC is kinda ho-hum compared to that.

Actually they only DS to icons. Not marks. I'd go against plasma-combis for right now. The field is pretty odd, everything has cover so they will always be saving against those shots no matter what they are, especially if the squad is in assault range. Go with as many NM as you can. They are good. Don't sacrifice your anti-tank for them though. They will take loses but your playing the shooty list here. You need two DPs to fly around and Lash people away as you rain death on them with long range fire. The Oblits and DPs are your anti-tank while your NM are the objective takers. You need them, and I say never take a NM without a sonic weapon. They are too good to pass up on empty bodies. The Termies will be able to swoop in (via move or deep strike) to protect the troops from incoming threats. Two squads of 5 with a Reaper Autocannon in each would be perfect for reinforcing objectives with heavy fire and maybe some deadly CC/flamers (what I suggest for the combis for right now. I think the templates are going to be incredible in 5th).

Thanks a lot guys!!! Im learning a lot from you.

Im thinking Ill go for four squads of six NMs. All having sonic blasters. And a DP and 4 oblits. Thats 1055 pts. The rest of the points will be spent on the termies. I think...

So thats 445 pts on termies. Too much pts? One big squad of 10 with 2 RACs, 2 PFs, 6 combis and MoS is 415 pts. That lets me add another NM with sb or some more magic on the DP (warptime?). OR I could do two or three smaller squads of termies. All 445 could be spent on 3+4+4 termies with 2 RACs, 1 heavy flamer, 3 PFs and 6 combis. Not really knowing what Im doing here, just playing around with the numbers.... Thoughts? Is it wrong to do both combis and RACs? And if you dont like RACs. If I remove them, what should I do to keep the list shooty? Range of 24" isnt really shooty in my book.

The list I'm helping my buddy take to Vegas is as such:

2 Lash Prince
3x3 Oblits
3x9 NM (7 SB, 1 BM, no champ)

Oblits take out tanks/MC's, NM take out infantry through lots of fire, and lash princes annoy you. It's 1750, drop 3 oblits and you are easily at 1500. 3x NM not 4x NM, if you want max troops slots filled out just do that but don't bring along any BM they'll get picked off in small squads.

You should save the terminator horde for 1850+ points.

God that list is boring....

Win or lose I'd rather play the OP's list.

Spellbound wrote:God that list is boring....

Win or lose I'd rather play the OP's list.

Because it's easier to beat? He didn't ask "Make me the funnest list ever!" he asked to help him improve his list. That's what we're trying to do. But I think he should keep 10 of the termies. I personally favor them and they are just plain cool.

No I meant I'd rather play AS the OP's list.

But yeah, I get the point. I've actually returned to using terminators fairly recently and I'm loving them. Deepstriking onto icons with two heavy flamers and some combi-flamers is really quite fun!

Stelek's suggestion isn't just a snoozer, it's also a loser. When the Chaos Space Marine Codex was released it did well as a novelty list, but the novelty wore off a while ago, and people have caught onto the one-trick pony.

The problem is that the trick is copied by the original poster's list - reliance on Obliterators and a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince. I'd suggest dropping the Obliterators for some tanks, and particularly some transports, and either give the Daemon Prince the Warptime power or drop it in favour of a Slaaneshi Sorcerer with a Familiar, Warptime, and Lash of Submission.

Here's what I suggest:

Sorcerer of Chaos
w/Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime, Familiar, Lash of Submission, Plasma Pistol, Personal Icon
(175pts)

Terminator Squad
x5 w/Pair of Lightening Claws, Power Fist, Heavy Flamethrower, 2 Combi-Weapons, Icon of Slaanesh
(200pts)

Terminator Squad
x5 w/Pair of Lightening Claws, Power Fist, Heavy Flamethrower, 2 Combi-Weapons, Icon of Slaanesh
(200pts)

Noise Marine Squad
x7 w/Blast Master
(185pts)

Noise Marine Squad
x8 w/Sonic Blasters
Rhino w/Daemonic Possession
(245pts)

Noise Marine Squad
x8 w/Sonic Blasters
Rhino w/Daemonic Possession
(245pts)

Land Raider
w/Daemonic Possession, Dirge Caster
(245pts)

Here's the idea: If you're attacking the enemy, a Terminator Squad can ride in the Land Raider while it blocks line of sight to, or covers, the Rhinos behind it. The Sorcerer can either ride with one of the Noise Marine squads, using a Fire Point on a Rhino to Lash units into position to be Blastmaster'd, or to ready for the Terminators to come crashing out of the Land Raider.

Alternately, you can have the Sorcerer ride in the Land Raider with the Blastmaster squad, and use his Personal Icon to call the Terminators in from reserve with pin-point accuracy. Once the Sorcerer is in range to charge, or simply want to lay on the hurt with his Plasma Pistol, or (much more likely) doesn't have a target for the Lash of Submission, he has Warptime to make it hurt. Otherwise he can dominate units in the standard way with the Lash of Submission.

The Terminators are tooled up to deal with all comers, but to minimize the loss of efficiency that comes with dual roles. I recommend Flamethrowers for your Combi-Weapons, but Melta might come in handy for burning vehicles and Necrons, while Plasma is great for dealing with enemy Terminators and Obliteratos.

In the opposite fashion the Noise Marines are divided up by their tasks. The Blastmaster squad is armed with Rapid Fire and Heavy Weapons. They either stay behind and provide long ranged support, or plant themselves on an Objective and provide close ranged support. The Sonic Blaster Squads are there to back up the Terminators and the Sorcerer in their assaults, and to also provide mobile firepower.

Mobility, either from Deep Strike or transport, will let you control your opponents ability to fight back, and particularly the Daemonic Possession of the tanks will let them not only grind on with impunity, but to smash the enemy with long range firepower and short-ranged rams.

I suggest bits-ordering one of Asdrubael Vect's slave girls for the Sorcerer's Familiar.

The most powerful chaos lists have 9 oblits.

Everything else is just filler.

Okay, let me correct myself: some people have caught onto the one-trick pony...

For the cost of two Obliterators you can get five Havocs: Four Marines with Meltaguns, and a Champion with a Power Weapon.

For the cost of three Obliterators you can get five Havocs: Four Marines with Lascannons, and one with an Icon of Chaos Glory.

Guess which choice won't be wiped out by the first two Lascannon shots to come their way?

Nurglitch, are you going on again about how lists I write are crap?

I wish you'd stop.

Havocs with heavies cannot move and fire.
Havocs cannot deep strike.

Oblits blow tanks up, and failing that, rip them up in CC.

You bring havocs and ten-man marine squads for lascannon fire, and watch the joy of losing.

How many marines can you stick under a NM blast with lash?

More than you'll kill with Havocs.

Damn, I have to agree with blackmoor. /cry

Nurglitch wrote:For the cost of two Obliterators you can get five Havocs: Four Marines with Meltaguns, and a Champion with a Power Weapon.

For the cost of three Obliterators you can get five Havocs: Four Marines with Lascannons, and one with an Icon of Chaos Glory.

The "improved" list you quoted has neither of these suggestions.

whitedragon:

That is correct. I leave it to you to figure out what else is better than three Obliterators.

Nurglitch wrote:

Guess which choice won't be wiped out by the first two Lascannon shots to come their way?

Is this a trick question? Neither is wiped out by two lascannon shots.

There honestly isn't much else in the CSM codex better than oblits. They are just really versatile and powerful. Havoc squads get torn apart like all other marines. Havocs are ok. I run a squad with 4xHBs. But I also run 6 Oblits when I can too. And you bet I run the Oblits over the Havocs when it is advantageous which is usually always.

It's not a trick question: the odds are that the first two Lascannons that hit the Obliterators will Instant Kill them.

Havoc squads aren't really more fragile than Obliterators because they have the same toughness, often more wounds (5 v 4 in the example), get a cover save in 5th edition that is better than the Obliterator's invulnerable save, they can have a Rhino to provide cover, block incoming fire, and redeploy more effective. The Rhino can even add to their firepower:

I'm sure you noticed that in each example I provided the Havocs had either 50% or 100% more firepower. A unit that kills more effective is better protected than a unit with a better saving throw. Not rolling saving throws is better than relying on even a rock-solid save like Sv2+/5+.

By the way, "usually always"? Is that like "50% of the time it's all the time!"

Don't get me wrong though, I think there are times when Obliterators are pretty handy, it's just that they aren't always the best choice, and need certain support in order to be used to their full effect.

I think that Obliterators are pretty good if you take a single unit that does a Deep Strike onto an Icon, in heavy terrain and preferably accompanied by a unit of Summoned Daemons. Here why:

Most obviously it's a question of protecting what are actually pretty fragile units. Now that they have to use their Power Fists, Power Weapons and Rending assault troops will have a field day with them, although that was already happening in my area because they still only have I4. Heck, roll enough dice and Orks can chop them to bits before they kill a single Ork.

Basically they're vulnerable to low strength weapons like Bolters and Lasguns, that the tanks aren't, don't carry the firepower that Havocs can, and are matched by tanks, and thanks to T4 can be Instant Killed by anti-tank weapons. Plasma eats them alive.

Of course, if you have other Heavy Support starting on the board, and you have an Icon to drop on so you can place them somewhere where they can catch the side or rear armour of vehicles, or use their Flamerthrowers on infantry, and back them up with a bunch of cover-providing I4-fighting Lesser Summoned Daemons, then they can be placed to apply their firepower to its greatest advantage, and survive.

I was not going to reply because I hold these truths to be self evident. But I will endulge myself

Nurglitch wrote:It's not a trick question: the odds are that the first two Lascannons that hit the Obliterators will Instant Kill them.

Here is one (of many) of the big advantages that Oblits have over Havocs. You see, Oblits can move and shoot which is huge. So what they can do is stand behind LOS blocking terrain, and then move from behind it and shoot the Havocs before they Havocs can shoot at them.

Havoc squads aren't really more fragile than Obliterators because they have the same toughness, often more wounds (5 v 4 in the example), get a cover save in 5th edition that is better than the Obliterator's invulnerable save,

Although you are talking about them being fragile, they really are not. How many lascannons do you really see out there? Let’s take the army YOU built above. How many weapons do you have that can kill oblits? I see the 2 TL Lascannons from the LR and that is it. So if you brought 9 Oblits against your army, all you had to do is kill the Land Raider (not to hard with 9 Oblits) and then it is game over. Then turn the tables around. If you took the army you posted, it can easily kill Havocs without working up a sweat.

they can have a Rhino to provide cover, block incoming fire, and redeploy more effective. The Rhino can even add to their firepower:

Rhinos for Havocs? Um ok. But if you are taking heavy weapons you can’t use it for cover. All they have to do is shoot immoblilize it, and you will have to take a turn or two to move to get a shot.

I'm sure you noticed that in each example I provided the Havocs had either 50% or 100% more firepower. A unit that kills more effective is better protected than a unit with a better saving throw. Not rolling saving throws is better than relying on even a rock-solid save like Sv2+/5+.

A 2+ save with 2 wounds is a heck of a lot harder to kill than a 3+ save. Again look at your army above. It could not kill anything with a 2+ save, but could mow through an army with 3+ saves.

Don't get me wrong though, I think there are times when Obliterators are pretty handy, it's just that they aren't always the best choice, and need certain support in order to be used to their full effect.

Oblits are always the best choice. I tried to make a pre-heresy army that did not have oblits, and I could never find anything that could replace them.


Again, I could go through all of the reasons why, but I will add the ability to switch heavy weapons for the right circumstance is something that Havocs can never do.

I think that Obliterators are pretty good if you take a single unit that does a Deep Strike onto an Icon, in heavy terrain and preferably accompanied by a unit of Summoned Daemons.

I would hope that you are kidding, but I am afraid you are not.

Here why:

Most obviously it's a question of protecting what are actually pretty fragile units. Now that they have to use their Power Fists, Power Weapons and Rending assault troops will have a field day with them, although that was already happening in my area because they still only have I4. Heck, roll enough dice and Orks can chop them to bits before they kill a single Ork.

If you have Oblits in assault, then you do not know how to play. Oblits should be in the rear with the gear, they should never be in assault range.

Basically they're vulnerable to low strength weapons like Bolters and Lasguns, that the tanks aren't, don't carry the firepower that Havocs can, and are matched by tanks, and thanks to T4 can be Instant Killed by anti-tank weapons. Plasma eats them alive.

That is why you need them to be over 24” away. They are armed with a variety of weapons with 36”-48” range there is no reason to be close.

Did you say bolters can kill them? Let’s see, if you have 18 marines rapid firing that is 36 shots, 24 will hit at BS4, 12 will wound and with a 2+ save they will do 2 wounds. So to repeat, it takes 18 marines rapid-firing bolters to kill one oblit. If that is your idea of vulnerable to bolters….um ok.

Of course, if you have other Heavy Support starting on the board, and you have an Icon to drop on so you can place them somewhere where they can catch the side or rear armour of vehicles, or use their Flamerthrowers on infantry, and back them up with a bunch of cover-providing I4-fighting Lesser Summoned Daemons, then they can be placed to apply their firepower to its greatest advantage, and survive.

Well, if you deepstrike, that means that they are in reserve, so they will miss out on 1-3 rounds of shooting. They have Lascannons so they do not need to shoot at rear armor, and they have plasma cannons to shoot at infantry. The easy way to kill Oblits is to assault them with powerfists, ICs, or other CC specialists, etc.

Blackmoor:

I'm surprised that you think only Lascannons can kill Obliterators. Surely you noticed that the list I proposed included Chaos Terminators, which eat Obliterators, and can Deep Strike with Comi-Weapons so that they can land, shoot one squad of Obliterators to death, and then annihilate another in assault during the next turn. If you're lucky and your opponent is tempted to mis-position his units you can catch both surviving squads of Obliterators with a single unit of Terminators.

As you say, the easy way to kill Obliterators is to assault them with close combat specialists.

Moreover you seem to be unaware that Havocs can be much more mobile than Obliterators: you leave the Heavy Weapons at home and take the small guns. The Rhino has plenty of firing points and plenty of speed, and can be quite tough with Daemonic Possession. For the cost of two Obliterators you can have a squad of five Havocs with four Meltaguns, and a Rhino with a Combi-Weapon, if you want something with twice the anti-tank firepower, 3x the survivability, and 50% more assault power. Or, and 2x the speed.

Regarding using Rhinos as cover, I'm surprised that you think that the Rhino would need to move. The point isn't to put the Rhino between the Havocs and their targets, but between shooting units and the Havocs, and the Havocs should be shooting assault units, not going tit-for-tat with their opposite numbers.

Unlike Obliterators Havocs can avoid assaults by Terminators dropping in their backfield to exterminate them: they're not so slow Terminators can catch them, and if you take the Rhino then it's worth a wrecked Rhino (if you have Extra Armour or Daemonic Possession) to have a crack to running the Terminators over - to either push them out of charge range, or simply to chicken the other player into getting a Power Fist squished. A 35 point Rhino for a 40 pt Terminator? Definitely.

Now, concerning the proper use of Obliterators: Surely you noticed my comment about how if you were going to take Obliterators you needed to fill up your Heavy Support slots with units that actually do well sitting in the backfield providing support. That way when your Obliterators turn up late the rest of your army doesn't miss out on its Heavy Support.

The fact that Obliterators have Lascannons does not mean that they do not need to shoot at rear armour. It means that shooting at rear armour is a great idea! Take a Leman Russ, for example: It's a 6 to penetrate the front armour with a Lascannon, a 2 to penetrate its rear armour. Likewise a Predator, a 5 to penetrate its front armour, a 2 to penetrate its rear armour. A Falcon? 4+ to penetrate front armour, 2+ to penetrate its rear armour. Rear is always better.

Even if you're facing a vehicle like a Land Raider or Monolith, you're better off being in its rear quadrant. Outflanking an enemy means that they can either risk going forward, and leave their backfield support (and objectives) to your Obliterator's utter lack of mercy (and their supporting Lesser Daemons who can capture the objectives), or they can try to deal with them and take the pressure off your own mid and backfield.

Speaking of holding truths to be self-evident, there's a nasty 40k quote that is appropriate to the situation here:

"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt."

Actually it's more like cursed, but back when that quote was first published (Rogue Trader) 40k had a pleasantly self-deprecative edge rather than the modern cloying seriousness (there's still some good jokes though...). Cursed because you're stuck with tactical tunnel vision and boring cookie-cutter armies when you could be innovative and the community could play a greater variety of Chaos Marine armies.

Please keep the discussion going! Im learning soo much!!!

This whole discussion on oblits have been very enlightening. Could we do one on termies? Someone said go with no termies at 1500 pts, someone said 5+5 and someone said 10.

I could do two or three smaller squads of termies. 3+4+4 termies with 2 RACs, 1 heavy flamer, 3 PFs and 6 combis. Not really knowing what Im doing here, just playing around with the numbers....

Im leaning towards one big squad of 10 with 2 RACs, 2 PFs, 6 combis and MoS but Im not impossible. I want a big powerful squad or two/many small that fits a shooty theme and complements my oblits and NMs.

Youve got some 400+ points to spend. Spend em well!

@ Nurglitch: You really should write an article about how to build CSM armies your way. Its interesting and inspiring.

Personally, Im newly converted to 40k and CSM and what did it for me was the DP and oblits. The idea that a human and his technology has grown together with evil powers is just ... me! *grin* I really like it. Not sure if Im happy or sad over the fact that my two favourite CSM units are among the best and the cheese that apparently alot of players are laying on. So, even if its cheese Ill play em. Your ideas with havocs and tanks etc sounds really cool, but for me, if I wanted tanks and all Id probably do some SM chapter. Chaos for me is mutated madness! Flesh and steel!

Now everyone. Read my previous post and start another discussion on termies. How many should I bring and what to arm them with??? Or Ill have to put magnets in all those tiny shoulders and weapons... *mutters*