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Just an FYI, flamers are stupid powerful now if you stack them up in a single squad. For the extreme example, consider 15 burna boyz in a battlewagon. Consider that battlewagon gets close enough to an enemy unit to allow just 4 hits from a flamer template. Consider how much damage 60 S4 ap5 hits would do to anything.

This is soo true!
My 2000pts list contains a battlewaggon with 14 burnaz and one mek.
wasn't able to try it out yet though, but I'm looking forward

Running guardsmen with flamers is the new black .

Seriously, template weapons are going to see a huge rise in popularity. I pulled 10 flamer guardsmen off the shelf for this weekend and they made their points back in the first turn that they let loose. Likewise Hellhounds are practically instant win against Ork Hordes, especially if screened by chimeras.

Aren't Flamers pretty much the same they've always been?

Yeah, their rules are the same BUT ignoring cover saves is awesome with nearly everything getiing cover saves now, due to screen.

But the new fact you work out how many hits you get fo the whole uint THEN removing models is very useful.

Phryxis wrote:Aren't Flamers pretty much the same they've always been?

Yes, but the game has changed around them. More cover saves and no consolidation into new units.

The fundamental mechanics of flamer usage have changed considerably in 5e. They are still short range auto-hit weapons, but with the removal of consolidation into new combats, flamers are now much more effective because assaulting troops are forced to ball up in front of ranked squads instead of just working down the gun line. This creates many opportunities for flamers to hit 6+ models throughout the game whereas before you'd get maybe one shot off, with one rank, and then consolidations would take everything else down with no shooting allowed.

A single flamer is only slightly better than before (ignore cover saves, assaults leave people hanging). But a single unit with multiple flamers is now much much much more powerful.

One thing they have done to nerf flamers is that they no longer hit every unit inside bunkers. Instead, IIRC you have to attack the building, hope for a forced disembark, and then you can shoot at the troops inside. Not nearly as cool.

Even before 5e, I had a CSM squad with two flamers. This unit is accompanied by a LoS socerer. If you think multiple flamers is hot, try having multiple flamers and the ability to group enemy squads into a flamer-template shaped formation

yeah when i combine 4 flamers and 2 combiflamers in my sisters of battle mounted in a immolator with a twin linked heavy flamer its really nice and with the addition of my faith points making ap1 hits when rolling 6s to wound with o cover saves really quite horrible

It certainly makes for a more interesting choice between flamethrowers and whatever other options a unit has.

Combi-weapons, for example.

This is one of the reasons why I think Sisters are going to prove to be one of the best armies of 5th, without a doubt. They can spread more flamers through their lists than anyone off the top of my head.

Flamers did have a significant rules bump. Sourclams made reference to it. It used to be that a unit with multiple flamers had to resolve each template in sequence, ie, lay one down, wound those hit, make saves, remove casualties, repeat.

Now, all templates are laid down, hit are counted for each template, and then wounds are rolled. Before, casualties taken from a prior template might reduce the power of each successive template. Not now.

Flamers (i.e. all template weapons) still hit all units in a building. See the section on attacking buildings.

Going to try 10 Storm Guardians with 2 flamers and a destructor Warlock. (Str 5 AP 4 too)

Or how about 10 warlocks, on bikes, with destructor?

yeah sounds good i'm also playing round with:
eldrad
x4 warlocks with destructor
x1 warlock with enhance
in a falcon
so you can doom a unit fortune your own and doom a second for another unit to shoot.
x4 heavy flamers with RR to wound and are WS5, I5 with RR on failed saves very hard to budge.

They are good now, but you still can't go over the top with 15 of them in a unit like someone suggested. Well, you can, but its going to be hard to use. The templates are not allowed to touch any friendly model when you place it (except for the one using the flamer of course). This means its going to get really hard to fire of 15 of them at once. It woud take some real carfull possition of your troops, and even then 15 seems tough.

However, four or so should be no problem.

15 in an open topped vehicle works splendid. Templates come from the hull!

I dont think the idea with the orks is so much oooh look I can hit you with 15 flamers at once. I think the idea is sweet I actually have enough left alive after crossing the board to USE my flamers.

Besides, Burna boys should only be bought in 2 sizes; 15 man or 0 man. The mob rule is too important to not maximize the size of your Ork units. 225 points well spent.

I dont think the idea with the orks is so much oooh look I can hit you with 15 flamers at once. I think the idea is sweet I actually have enough left alive after crossing the board to USE my flamers.

Good point

3-man units of Flamers of Tzeentch are particularly brutal now. Auto-wound on a 4+ with no armor or cover saves was decent under 4th edition, but now, against a tightly clumped unit, you could get more hits than the total number of models, (10 hits on your 6-man Tac squad), giving a fairly strong chance of eliminating an entire unit. They're pretty fun.

To the poster who mentioned the Warlock council, I've toyed with the idea, it's pretty strong, but just bear in mind that since the jetbikes come on the large flying bases (like skimmers) that unit takes up a ton of space, and requires some careful maneuvering to maximize the flamer templates.

Flamers of Tzeentch are indeed amazing units, and probably one of the hardest hitting for their point cost. But their drawback is that they're forced to Deep Strike in and they're only T4 with a 4+. Flamers are very vulnerable to small arms fire, especially since most people only run 3-4.

I still love them, and my Daemons always make use of at least eight in any list I run, but with new LoS rules they're a glass cannon. Kind of a moot point, though, because they rarely fail to make their points back... one blast against any elite squad pretty much guarantees a total wipeout.

Say, aren't Eldar Avatars immune to flame-related template weapons?

Yes though why you would rely on a flamer of any kind to take out an Avatar (even if he wasn't immune) is beyond me!

Who ever thought flamers and blast weapons would be the new hotness?

Blast weapons I'm still somewhat iffy on.

Moreover, how to defend against them?

Do you continue to spread way out like before, hoping they actually roll a "hit" and hit 1 guy? [or several, if ordnance]....

Or, something popping into my head, what about deliberately clumping together or lining up? With the increased odds of scatter, a squad bunched up in a deepstrike formation would make any scatter of 4" basically miss the target entirely, and if you make a line, then anything 2" or more in any particular direction other than left or right will also cause a miss.

I'm thinking the line is the best choice - spread out still makes for nasty casualties if they scatter and hit multiple models, bunching up sounds neat but very risky - a solid hit takes out the whole squad. But a line is kind of best of both worlds, a 3" blast template only able to kill 3 at best.

I think the best way to defend against blasts is staggered lines spaced 2-3" apart. It's almost guaranteed that scatters will hit several models, but most of those guys should have a 4+ cover save due to intervening units. Bunching them up is far, far too risky for my tastes. If your opponent is running 3 blasts, he's almost guaranteed to wipe out the whole squad with minimal shooting. I agree that lines is the way to do it... the point being to absorb the inevitable casualties across as many units as possible, prolonging their survivability.