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My wife and I were just discussing Mathhammer combat results -- Savage Orc Big'Uns vs. Grave Guard with Great Weapons, Vampire Lord with Blood Drinker in the unit. We assumed that the Savage Orcs got the charge on the Grave Guard just to see how the math worked out, and ran the numbers.

Then my wife mentions that even though all of the Grave Guard would be dead, the Vampire Lord's 4 inflicted wounds could bring back 4 Grave Guard. Who could actually swing their great weapons as though they'd never been dead in the first place. This doesn't really sound right to either of us, but it's not mentioned in the Vampire Counts FAQ.

I suppose the RAW is clear enough, but the intent is really in doubt. Invocation of Nehek's rules are written to mention "the following close combat phase", and it really doesn't seem like the games designers even considered Blood Drinker here. It would effectively remove any/all penalties for using Great Weapons on the Grave Guard, making this a no-brainer choice.

Are we reading into this incorrectly, or is this actually how it's meant?

I believe you are over-thinking it.

1) IoN usually occurs in the magic phase, which comes before the close combat phase, hence the wording 'in the following close combat phase'. That doesn't apply here.
2) For Blood Drinker, "as if IoN had been cast on them" means that champions would be raised first, then other command, etc.

During the combat as you have outlined it, the only model able to attack back is the Vampire Lord. The close combat phase would end when the Vampire Lord swings back.

The Grave Guard would not be resurrected until after the close combat phase was over. They might give you back a rank, or prevent the orcs from getting outnumber, or otherwise help to modify the CR, but they wouldn't get any attacks. At least, I would be very uncomfortable arguing otherwise.

Oooh, nice question!

I think they swing, here's the logic:
Combat goes chargers, then I sequence so:
Charge: Savage orcs kill GG
On I7 Vamp kills orcs, GG revived (trigger is models killed, not end of CC phase)
I0 GG swing

Still doesn't make it a no brainer choice, though- the DreadLance and Red Fury for example are sexy. Also, it's still a M4 unit. Don't forget that the regen banner on GG/BKs is even better.

In the simplest view of this.

After the orcs attack the only models that can strike back are the Champion of the GG's and the Vampire (unless they were targetted and killed) or ANY OTHER FRONT RANK MODEL THAT WAS NOT KILLED.

No matter how many GG's are brought back they could not attack.

So Orcs attack, champions and characters respond and then GG's return in time to affect results of combat.

Ranks are calculated based on the start of the combat round not the end so there would be no difference there.

The only difference it would affect is if you are outnumbered or not.

VC loose by a lot and take extra wounds and probably go bye bye.

Da_Viking: Please explain your logic. The GG were not dead at the beginning of combat and are not dead in the CC phase during their initiative step.

OK Lets be a little more precise.

19 GG with Cmd, GW and 1 Vampire with blood thirster.

20 Savage Orc Biguns with CMD

Orcs Charge, Orcs Kill 6 GG.

GG Champion and Vampire get to attack back with 4 kills (Vampire killing 3) and this brings 3 GG Back

Both units have 3 ranks so that cancels out

Both Units have standard so that cancels out

Orcs Killed 6 VC Killed 4 VC have out number

VC loose by 1 and an extra GG goes away Both sides down by 4 models total after all comabt

HOWEVER: in the original example they stated that all Grave Guard were dead and the Vampire resurected 4. Dont know how they came to that conclusion.

IN ADDITION: The question is around the fact that the Grave Guard were attacking back after the the Vampire attacked which brought them back to life.

SO: lets revise the scenario where the 2 units are in a line 20 on 20.

Orcs attack and kill 19 Grave Guard.

Vampire attacks and Kills 4 Orcs. (point 1 Unit is now gone so could not be brought back)

If 4 GG come back then can they attack? Champion Standard Bearer and Musician plus one other GG are now alive. and attacks based on initiative would mean it is their chance to attack. (Point 2 they were killed and models that are killed cannot attack back). In a best case scenario the Champion might be able to attack back. Lets say he gets 1 kill.

Orcs 0 Rank bonus, 1 Outnumber Bonus, 1 Standard Bonus plus 19 Kills.

VC 0 Rank Bonus, 1 Standard Bonus plus 5 Kills.

VC lose by 15 and take 15 additional wounds (this should kill all the GG and the Vampire).

Sorry for the length. I hope this shows what I am thinking and why. If you have any further questions please post and I will respond.

I would read very carefully around when the GG come back. And remember that if I make 5 kills which is as big as your front rank only a champion and / or a character can attack back.

Da_Viking wrote:OK Lets be a little more precise.

19 GG with Cmd, GW and 1 Vampire with blood thirster.

20 Savage Orc Biguns with CMD

Orcs Charge, Orcs Kill 6 GG.

GG Champion and Vampire get to attack back with 4 kills (Vampire killing 3) and this brings 3 GG Back

Both units have 3 ranks so that cancels out

Both Units have standard so that cancels out

Orcs Killed 6 VC Killed 4 VC have out number

VC loose by 1 and an extra GG goes away Both sides down by 4 models total after all comabt

Why do you have the Vampire (initiative of at least 6) attacking at the same time as the GG Champ (initiative 1)?

Written in initiative steps;

-Orcs attack first (having charged), kill 6
-Vampire attacks at initiative 6+, kills 3, resurrecting 3 GG
-GG attack at initiative 1; at this point the Champ and 3 of the original front rank are "alive", and so they make 4 WS3, S6 attacks.

Also, since you are trying to be more precise, I would note that the weapon in question is the Blood Drinker, unless this is a very manly vampire indeed to be swinging around a greater daemon!

Da_Viking wrote:HOWEVER: in the original example they stated that all Grave Guard were dead and the Vampire resurected 4. Dont know how they came to that conclusion.

IN ADDITION: The question is around the fact that the Grave Guard were attacking back after the the Vampire attacked which brought them back to life.

...

Your somewhat odd divergence misses the critical point; if all the GG are killed, then the Vampire cannot resurrect them, as they no longer exist as a unit and so cannot be affected by IoN.

There are 2 important features to the analysis:
-The wounds restored by the Blood Drinker are restored "immediately" (see Blood Drinker item description p.84),
-The wounds/models are restored, not simply added, starting at the front rank. The only restriction on these models in close combat is that "they do not gain charge bonus in the following close combat", there is no indication that they are unable to fight. Models so resurrected are present at the beginning of combat, and at their initiative step.

All that said, it's still not a particularly good item; if the unit is at full strength when the vampire attacks, the weapon has no additional effect at all unless it's a unit of ghouls/skeleton warriors and the vamp has the appropriate bloodline power (i.e. he raises additional models).

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that jmurph is correct, and I was not. Models strike when 1) it is their turn to attack and 2) they are in BtB with an enemy. If wounds are put back on the front rank, starting with the champion, then both conditions are satisfied.

Another question this raises is, do the wounds inflicted by the orcs still count towards combat resolution, if the sword restores them?

Called GW and the Grave Guard models that are resurected get to attack.

And while the 4 killed models still count towards CR the 4 models killed by the Vampire offset that so most likely the Orcs are going to die.

Blood thirster / blood drinker (its all a bloody mess to me) Guess I oopsed there.

so...

-Orcs attack first (having charged), kill 6
-Vampire attacks at initiative 6+, kills 3, resurrecting 3 GG
-GG attack at initiative 1; at this point the Champ and 3 of the original front rank are "alive", and so they make 4 WS3, S6 attacks.

But Champion may have 2 attacks so they would make 5WS3 S6 attacks.

Hmmm.. that will make a difference when I consider building my VC army.

I agree that if all the GG are killed, no wounds can be restored by Blood Drinker as the unit is gone and it is just the solo character.

Since the wounds are not prevented (IE by armor, ward, regen, etc.) they were inflicted and count towards CR. But, as you point out, the vamp could swing that.