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So I have been trying to rework my mech eldar for 5th, and I have two list concepts in mind.
They are both fully mechanized lists, probably deployed in reserves for most games, designed to come in aggressively and focus on a part of the enemy's army until utterly annihilated. The first has a much stronger CC punch though, and the second has quite a different flavour, coming in on a 2+ turn 2 with a lot more firepower than the first. Give me an idea of which list you prefer and why, and we'll see where the discussion goes after that:

List #1
Eldrad
Autarch - power weapon, mandihat

8 Banshees - Exarch w/ mirrorswords
Serpent#1 - SC, SS, SE

8 Scorpions - Exarch w/ claw and stalker [attach seer and autarch perhaps]
Serpent#2 - SC, SS, SE

6 Dragons - Exarch w/ DBF, Crack Shot
Serpent#3 - SC, SS, SE

10 DAs
Serpent#4 - EML

10 DAs
Serpent#5 - EML

10 DAs
Serpent#6 - EML

~1850

Eldrad could be downgraded to a normal doom/fortune-seer, and the Autarch upgraded to Yriel, or other upgrades added..but the general concept remains. Another variant is losing the scorpions for a 8 warlock Seer council, but that also necessitates dropping eldrad for a normal seer, and would potentially have issues if coming in from reserve.

List #2

Yriel
Autarch - power weapon, mandihat, avenger catapult

6 Dragons - Exarch w/ DBF, CS

10 DAs - Exarch w/ diresword, bladestorm
Serpent#1 - 2SC

10 DAs - Exarch w/ Twin Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm
Serpent#2 - 2SC

10 DAs - Exarch w/ TSC, BS
Serpent#3 - 2SC

10 DAs - Exarch w/ TSC, BS
Serpent#4 - 2SC

Falcon#1 - BL
Falcon#2 - BL
Falcon#3 - BL

~1850

This list comes in more reliably, on a 2+, and puts out a lot more high strength, low AP firepower with the falcons. Some people criticize the naked falcon build, and say they are too expensive for 3 BS3 shots, but I suppose it just needs playtesting. Yriel could be swapped out for a farseer, which could help a lot with Doom, but a big weakness is invariably going to be combat, where this list is largely lacking. Yriel and the autarch [attached to combat DA squad] can kill off low model count squads and such easy targets, but there is nothing particularly substantial combat wise in this list. A lot would be banking on un-guided, un-doomed bladestorming firepower. The 4 squads could alternate each turn, with 2 bladestorming a turn, or could all fire together and bladestorm at the last moment. In terms of rushing onto the board turn 2 and blazing away at the enemy, I like this list considerably more, but what do you guys think?

Enough from me, tell me what you think about these two lists, which one is potentially better, and what changes you would recommend.

Thanks for the help

Ibushi

Now we're talking, but I am curious.

Why don't you try this instead?

It's not a CC army, but it doesn't have to be.

You run up, you deliver your firepower where you need it, call it good.

==============================

1850 Pts - Eldar Roster - Unnamed

1 Autarch @ 72 Pts
Fleet; Independent Character; Master Strategist; Forceshield (FShld); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Avenger S-Catapult (ASC); Haywire Grenades (HayG); Plasma Grenades (PG)

1 Autarch @ 72 Pts
Fleet; Independent Character; Master Strategist; Forceshield (FShld); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Avenger S-Catapult (ASC); Haywire Grenades (HayG); Plasma Grenades (PG)

5 Fire Dragons @ 128 Pts
Fleet; Fusion Gun (Fg); Melta Bombs
1 Fire Dragon Exarch @ [48] Pts
Fleet; Tank Hunters; Crack Shot (CS); Dragon's Breath Flamer; Melta Bombs

5 Fire Dragons @ 128 Pts
Fleet; Fusion Gun (Fg); Melta Bombs
1 Fire Dragon Exarch @ [48] Pts
Fleet; Tank Hunters; Crack Shot (CS); Dragon's Breath Flamer; Melta Bombs

5 Fire Dragons @ 128 Pts
Fleet; Fusion Gun (Fg); Melta Bombs
1 Fire Dragon Exarch @ [48] Pts
Fleet; Tank Hunters; Crack Shot (CS); Dragon's Breath Flamer; Melta Bombs

9 Dire Avengers @ 292 Pts
Fleet; Avenger S-Catapult (ASC)
1 Dire Avenger Exarch @ [39] Pts
Fleet; Bladestorm (BS); Avenger S-Catapult (ASC)
1 Wave Serpent @ [145] Pts
Energy Field (Wave Serpent); Spirit Stone (V:SpStn); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat); TL Bright Lances (TL-BL)

9 Dire Avengers @ 292 Pts
Fleet; Avenger S-Catapult (ASC)
1 Dire Avenger Exarch @ [39] Pts
Fleet; Bladestorm (BS); Avenger S-Catapult (ASC)
1 Wave Serpent @ [145] Pts
Energy Field (Wave Serpent); Spirit Stone (V:SpStn); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat); TL Bright Lances (TL-BL)

0 Guardian Squad @ 240 Pts
Fleet
10 G Defender Squad @ [95] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x10)
1 Weapon Platform @ [15] Pts
Scatter Laser (SctL)
1 Wave Serpent @ [145] Pts
Energy Field (Wave Serpent); Spirit Stone (V:SpStn); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat); TL Bright Lances (TL-BL)

1 Falcon @ 165 Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Spirit Stone (V:SpStn); Shuriken Cannon (SCan); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat); Pulse Laser (PL)

1 Falcon @ 165 Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Spirit Stone (V:SpStn); Shuriken Cannon (SCan); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat); Pulse Laser (PL)

1 Falcon @ 165 Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Spirit Stone (V:SpStn); Shuriken Cannon (SCan); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat); Pulse Laser (PL)

Total Roster Cost: 1847

Well, I like the mech Eldar approach.
However, Ibushi's 2nd list is too weak for my liking. I remember the games vs Chaos (with Plague Marines, Greater Daemon, DPs) in GT Heat 1. The Fire Dragons saved my day. I would never go out without them.

Ibushi's list 1: Eldrad needs a unit that brings him through the battle, like a harbor. I'd take Seer Council, its harder to crack than a coconut; drop the Scorpions.

Stelek's list is strong, as always. However, I feel that a Farseer is vital for countering psychic casting via roward.

Finally, I'm yet undecided about fast skimmer upgrades:
- Vectored engines are redundant if the skimmer moves at most 12''.
- Stones are useful for skimmers that need to bring cc troops or Fire Dragons to a particular destination.
- Star engines are important for skimmers carrying cc troops, and the tank has been held in reserve. So it can move 36'' right into the opponent's face, lol.

He seemed to want two autarchs. I favor a farseer myself.

I think your analysis is spot on for vehicle upgrades and why.

I think Stones are good for two more reasons: So you can keep moving while tank shocking, and so you can always move and avoid getting hit in CC on anything but a 6. Being autohit, or even 4+...is usually death.

@Stelek - I think the 3 flamers + 20 DAs would cripple hordes more effectively than 40 DAs, and the shooting from TL BLs would be more effective, but are bright lances worth it - they are so expensive! Especially with tanks often getting 4+ cover saves in the first place. I would be tempted to go with EML+SC instead, hoping to get side armour shots, and anything that has AV over 12 on the sides can be killed by any of the many Dragon squads. That would seem to add more flexibility and troop-killing firepower, which is always nice. Although I can see the merit of some AP2 scattered around.

I would be a little scared to do anything with absolutely 0% combat ability though - can you add some more tactical thinking or experience in terms of playing with a 100% shooty army that isn't tau?

@ the fox - I agree about the vehicle upgrades, even spirit stones seemly largely redundant these days, but with all shooting units, the ability to move and then drop the squad for their shooting is still valuable. As for VEs, almost entirely redundant now, except for the occasional assault aspect.

But what makes you say the 2nd list is so weak - all you mention is fire dragons, which it includes. Otherwise, i understand the falcons don't have any upgrades, but any shooting at the falcons is entirely wasted shooting by my opponent [unless they down the dragons], and shooting not put into my DAs. So long as enemy tanks are dealt with, the Falcons can be used willy nilly as bait and distractions, helping protect the DAs on the ground.

As for the first list, swapping out the scorpions for a council is possible, but at the cost of downgrading Eldrad and cutting out a few DAs. I agree that the council is much better, but it could suffer on the turn it comes in from reserves [very expensive but no fortune for their 4+ saves], and if they deploy on the table instead, they would be the only tanks on the table, making them prime targets, and again without fortune on T1.


Anymore specific advice or comments would be muchly appreciated For now I am trying to wrestle with the idea of completely abandoning assault - can it really work? it seems a little balance-lacking to me =/

Ibushi

Thanks for pointing out, stones are useful for skimmers.

Well, its a tradeoff, two Autarchs vs Autarch and Farseer.
In the 2nd case, I prefer a cheaper Farseer with fortune, doom, and stones, since Eldrad cannot FoF.
An Autarch with fusion gun and a Farseer with spear going in the same tank can do serious damage (tank) after disembarking.

@Stelek - I think the 3 flamers + 20 DAs would cripple hordes more effectively than 40 DAs, and the shooting from TL BLs would be more effective, but are bright lances worth it - they are so expensive! Especially with tanks often getting 4+ cover saves in the first place. I would be tempted to go with EML+SC instead, hoping to get side armour shots, and anything that has AV over 12 on the sides can be killed by any of the many Dragon squads. That would seem to add more flexibility and troop-killing firepower, which is always nice. Although I can see the merit of some AP2 scattered around.

I would be a little scared to do anything with absolutely 0% combat ability though - can you add some more tactical thinking or experience in terms of playing with a 100% shooty army that isn't tau?

@ the fox - I agree about the vehicle upgrades, even spirit stones seemly largely redundant these days, but with all shooting units, the ability to move and then drop the squad for their shooting is still valuable. As for VEs, almost entirely redundant now, except for the occasional assault aspect.

But what makes you say the 2nd list is so weak - all you mention is fire dragons, which it includes. Otherwise, i understand the falcons don't have any upgrades, but any shooting at the falcons is entirely wasted shooting by my opponent [unless they down the dragons], and shooting not put into my DAs. So long as enemy tanks are dealt with, the Falcons can be used willy nilly as bait and distractions, helping protect the DAs on the ground.

As for the first list, swapping out the scorpions for a council is possible, but at the cost of downgrading Eldrad and cutting out a few DAs. I agree that the council is much better, but it could suffer on the turn it comes in from reserves [very expensive but no fortune for their 4+ saves], and if they deploy on the table instead, they would be the only tanks on the table, making them prime targets, and again without fortune on T1.


Anymore specific advice or comments would be muchly appreciated For now I am trying to wrestle with the idea of completely abandoning assault - can it really work? it seems a little balance-lacking to me =/

Ibushi

But what makes you say the 2nd list is so weak - all you mention is fire dragons, which it includes. Otherwise, i understand the falcons don't have any upgrades, but any shooting at the falcons is entirely wasted shooting by my opponent [unless they down the dragons], and shooting not put into my DAs. So long as enemy tanks are dealt with, the Falcons can be used willy nilly as bait and distractions, helping protect the DAs on the ground.

I'm talking from experience. Without any hard hitting units you are lost. Especially with the new rules. The DAs will have a hard time to take on larger MEQ units.

As for the first list, swapping out the scorpions for a council is possible, but at the cost of downgrading Eldrad and cutting out a few DAs. I agree that the council is much better, but it could suffer on the turn it comes in from reserves [very expensive but no fortune for their 4+ saves], and if they deploy on the table instead, they would be the only tanks on the table, making them prime targets, and again without fortune on T1.

I don't understand you reasoning about fortuning. When the tank comes in from reserves it will be deployed at the board edge. Then prior to movement, fortune can be casted.

I have always wished it would be played that way, but all of the eldar players I know have typically played it that you can't cast Fortune, Guide or Doom on the turn you come on.

The reasoning for this is that on pg 94 of the rulebook it says rolling for Reserves starts at the beginning of your movement phase, with the player then moving on each of his units as they are rolled for. As Fortune, Guide and Doom are all cast at the beginning of the player turn, not movement phase, they cannot be cast once the farseer has already moved on from reserves.
It is just one of the prices to pay from being able to get a turn of movement without any return fire I suppose. It seems fair to me, and it makes having a seer council in reserve a lot more risky than I would like it to be. Although with screening and careful tactics, this could probably be avoided.

I appreciate the feedback about DAs though, and I think you bring up a good point. Their offensive power is just a little bit...limited. Taking 3xDragons and 2xDAs seem better firepower wise, while I quite like the idea of 2xDragons, 2xDAs and 1xBanshees, but going all out shooting might be better....any suggestions??

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming

Ibushi

The FAQs should clarify the use of powers on the turn the psyker shows up.

I appreciate the feedback about DAs though, and I think you bring up a good point. Their offensive power is just a little bit...limited. Taking 3xDragons and 2xDAs seem better firepower wise, while I quite like the idea of 2xDragons, 2xDAs and 1xBanshees, but going all out shooting might be better....any suggestions??

Well, two units of FDs and one cc specialized unit will be the minimum.

How important do you think having a CC element a fully mechanized shooty list is for eldar???
Care to share what your lists are looking like these days?
Just curious as you seem to have a lot of experience but aren't quite letting us in on it. :p

As for FAQs ....lets hope so, but for now I think the rules are pretty clear about not using powers when coming in from reserves. If it wasn't that way, I would definitely take a farseer in a reserves list, as they are just too good. But as it is, hoping the council's serpent doesn't get gunned down while they don't have fortune seems like a really horrible idea to me. It could really screw up their day with their T3 and 4+ saves...no re-roll..

Any reason you are so sure the FAQ would let us cast powers when coming in from reserves??

Ibushi

You could be right about casting when the psyker comes from reserves.
If you can set up first (and gain the intiative), then all Serpents can be placed on the board.

Well, I played mech Eldar in 4th ed at several occasions (tournaments).
Strong Chaos lists require particular attention. Here you need hard hitters to take them down. DA units are just too soft and die too easily.

I have no problem with sharing ideas. However, most of my ideas are at the planning stage.
My plan for a 2000 pt list is a Farseer with Warlocks, Banshees, Dire Avengers in Serpents, and Fire Dragons in Falcons.

@Wuestenfux - I just found out that Chaos Sorcerors can cast Warptime even when deploying by Deepstrike, which is a psychic power much like Fortune or Guide, so that would seem to indicate GW looks favourably on psychic powers being cast while coming onto the table, but there is still not much evidence to go by that would indicate it is fully sanctified :$ If an FAQ came out, or gamers came to a consensus that it is ok [kind of like using them in transports, for instance], I would be much more excited about using the council in a mounted reserves list...Much more excited
If it were played that way, I would want to do something more along the lines of a council with attached farseer and autarch, then 3xDragons, 2xDAs and any left over points in troops.　
Why don't you post or PM me any planning stage lists you have to give me a better idea of where you are coming from? This is all entirely planning stage too

Anyone have a strong opinion on casting pychic powers when coming in from reserve? I will put a new thread in YMDC..

Thanks for all the input,

Ibushi

I just found out that Chaos Sorcerors can cast Warptime even when deploying by Deepstrike, which is a psychic power much like Fortune or Guide,

No.

I looked into the CSM FAQs: Warp time is used prior to movement. So a deep striking Sorcerer (with terminator armor) cannot use warp time, since deep striking takes place at the movement phase.

There are parallels with a Farseer emerging from reserves. It appears that he cannot cast fortune or guide the turn he arrives at the board. But a Seer Council is still much better than Scorpions that are not able to fleet and have no grenades whatsoever.

Alright so revising my ideas for this list, here is another idea:

Farseer - Doom, Fortune, Stones, RoWard
Autarch - pw, mh
8 Warlocks - 2xEmbolden, 1xEnhance
Serpent - SC, SS, SE

6 Banshees - Exarch w/ mirrorswords

6 Dragons - Exarch w/ DBF, CS

6 Dragons - Exarch w/ DBF, CS
Serpent -　ＥＭＬ

10 DAs
Serpent - EML

10 DAs
Serpent - EML

Falcon w/ holos, SS, SC

Falcon w/ holos, SS, SC

~1850

I could downgrade a few things to get BL serpents, or I am actually tempted to keep the squad sizes the same but drop the Falcons, and use the 90-100 extra points to add guns and upgrades and what have you, or maybe even a 3 man bike squad.

This seems to have a decent shooting punch, but definitely does not rely on DAs [no bladestorm as I figured they would take a less aggressive role, hanging back a little, as anything they can kill dragons and banshees can kill better - they are just support and objective holders. I might deploy them in cover fairly early and just keep plinking away at max range, going to ground when shot for 3+ saves, and fleeting to objectives at the last minute. for 54pts bladestorm doesn't help this much =/ ]

Alright, just my thoughts. Any feedback much appreciated

Ibushi

Well, looks much better, at least for me preferring a Seer Council over Scorpions.
However, you have only two scoring units. It might work. I would feel better if there are three of them.
For this, you could replace
1. the 6 FDs in the Falcon by 6 DAs, or
2. the 6 FDs in the Serpent by DAs.

The Serpent armament is questionable. I definitely go with scatter lasers or dual shuricannons instead of EMLs.

I agree with you Wuestenfux, and it is a tricky compromise. But with the potential for more LRs/LRCs these days, and the destructiveness of a TL heavy flamer, the Dragons are just so much more killy and versatile than the DAs, and with 4 units getting right up in the opponent's face [the council, banshee falcon, FD falcon and FD serpent], if they are spending their firepower shooting at my DAs I would be rather happy. They only need to have one model left [with LOS easily blocked by tanks] at the end of the game to seal me a win.
I will just play the DAs more supportively, and more sparingly, being much more careful and keeping them at max range, in cover. [thus the EMLs too]. I think its a tricky compromise that will come down to opponent and tactics, but one that just needs playtesting to be proven/disproven.

thanks for the feedback though, and I agree that this list is a little more solid [i think]. Coming in from reserves without fortune still scares me a little... =/

Ibushi

and I agree that this list is a little more solid [i think]. Coming in from reserves without fortune still scares me a little... =/

Not really. The third mission is night fight and the second requires to deploy in quarters (cleanse). This will help that the Council survives the 1st round of shooting.

I will just play the DAs more supportively, and more sparingly, being much more careful and keeping them at max range, in cover. [thus the EMLs too]. I think its a tricky compromise that will come down to opponent and tactics, but one that just needs playtesting to be proven/disproven.

This might work against MEQ armies, but against horde armies the DAs will excel and can hardly hang back. I will make some playtests during the next 4 weeks.

Not really. The third mission is night fight and the second requires to deploy in quarters (cleanse). This will help that the Council survives the 1st round of shooting.

Good point, I forgot about the DoW setup, where they can escape shooting fairly easily, but in cleanse mission setups it could go either way, I think it would depend more on terrain. But if you got first turn you don't really need to worry about it anyway I suppose.

With an entirely mechanized list how often would you anticipate deploying fully off table though? I see the advantages of deploying mostly or entirely off table being extremely attractive, as if your opponent makes any mistake with deployment, or starts moving for objectives, you can focus your whole army on a small part of his.

Well when you start playtesting, please let me know what is working and how, and what unit combos you are using, as that is all experience I am currently unable to get for another month :S and would be very helpful!

On the DAs, you are clearly right about them doing very well against Hordes, but with tank shock and heavy flamers, FDs or Warlocks with destructor also do extremely well, if not better [better rolls to wound, and ignore cover!]. Also, with quite a long range, DAs can afford to be deployed behind your army still, protected by the tanks and units in front, but still laying down their full amount of firepower. In this setup I can see shooting every turn being much more effective than bladestorming once every two turns also. Using serpents to block LOS and assaults will help a lot in this deployment also. How do you envision using DAs in your list?
I am really liking the idea of a big council, 6 strong Banshee squad, and then 2xFDs though. That seems really good offensively, and merits dropping the 3rd DA squad to me. I can't decide whether I want to add 2-3 destructors to my warlocks though. I can see it being amazing, but they could get left out of combat and shot up too easily...thoughts?

Lets keep this dialogue going, it is proving to be very constructive!

Ibushi

With an entirely mechanized list how often would you anticipate deploying fully off table though? I see the advantages of deploying mostly or entirely off table being extremely attractive, as if your opponent makes any mistake with deployment, or starts moving for objectives, you can focus your whole army on a small part of his.

Well, it depends.
If I get 1st turn vs a shooty army like Tau or IG, I will deploy all units on the board.
If the opponent has 1st turn, I will deploy on the board vs horde armies.

Well when you start playtesting, please let me know what is working and how, and what unit combos you are using, as that is all experience I am currently unable to get for another month and would be very helpful!

I have some friends (Eric, Simon, Marcus, ...) for playtesting (IG, Orks, DE, ...).

On the DAs, you are clearly right about them doing very well against Hordes, but with tank shock and heavy flamers, FDs or Warlocks with destructor also do extremely well, if not better [better rolls to wound, and ignore cover!]. Also, with quite a long range, DAs can afford to be deployed behind your army still, protected by the tanks and units in front, but still laying down their full amount of firepower. In this setup I can see shooting every turn being much more effective than bladestorming once every two turns also. Using serpents to block LOS and assaults will help a lot in this deployment also. How do you envision using DAs in your list?

Your ideas are sound. With two or three scoring units it is better to keep them protected, while still being able to shoot. Bladestorm is not a must have; if the DAs can shoot each round, that's even better.

I am really liking the idea of a big council, 6 strong Banshee squad, and then 2xFDs though. That seems really good offensively, and merits dropping the 3rd DA squad to me. I can't decide whether I want to add 2-3 destructors to my warlocks though. I can see it being amazing, but they could get left out of combat and shot up too easily...thoughts?

Well, I figured in Heat 1 that 2 FD squads and 1 Harlie squad was the minimum to take down stronger armies (MEQ); see my blog accessible from my signature (this was 4th ed). Destructors are nice, but requires freeing some points. Enhance and embolden are in a long run more helpful.

You put it well about deployment, and I suppose a lot of it has to do with the AT abilities of your opponent, as well as their speed. That sums it up well though.

I don't have any experience playing horde orks, or playing orks with mech eldar at all yet..which seems to be a big setback. I have only played against orks with a footslogging Eldravatar army, which was very successful due to a huge countercharge. I don't know how it would pan out against a more polished ork horde though...any tips or experiences much appreciated!

I am glad you like my ideas, I think people can get too hyped up about bladestorm. Typically the cheapness of DAs without upgrades, and the amount of shooting they can put out if they fire every turn makes them the stars in my army..not the bladestorm option so much.

But with the aggressiveness of the rest of the list, I am hoping the DAs can be somewhat safe in the back. And as their backup is not as crucial as the dragons or council, if they do take a round of heavy shooting, I would not hesitate to make them go to ground.. which would make them very survivable in 3+ cover.

I have looked at your blog, and am just waiting for it to be updated for 5th ed!! lol
I would love to take harlies, banshees AND 2x Dragons...but I can't...Banshees have worked better for me recently though..Harlies are just too expensive, and too risky in my experience [but still very good!!].

Alright, well add anything you think of!

Ibushi

I have looked at your blog, and am just waiting for it to be updated for 5th ed!! lol

Well, the GT final in Oct is played with 5th ed rules. The army list need to be turned in by Sept. 20.

I would love to take harlies, banshees AND 2x Dragons...but I can't...Banshees have worked better for me recently though..Harlies are just too expensive, and too risky in my experience [but still very good!!].

I prefer Banshees these days too, as they are cheaper and rending got a big nerf, unless the Farseer can manage to doom the unit the Harlies charges (but the same holds for Banshees).

Mech (and bike) Eldar make Orks cry. You can't handle loota fire, but they can't handle mobility.

Assuming we played it correctly last weekend, the change to rules regarding Flamer templates is just brutal. Lay all the flamer templates down, calculate the number of hits, then roll to wound. Big difference than 4th edition. If we indeed did play it correctly, I'd seriously consider 2 Destructors. Played against a Sisters army with my Orks and we played the range game the whole time. I had to work on keeping just out of range of any Flamers. He got one unit in with 3 Flamer templates and it was just plain mean (only one was a heavy flamer and the S5 vs. Orks made a big difference).

That would give you three seperate units that would be very versatile for little extra cost.

Bummer you won't be at SciFi for the next RTT. Looks like I'll be able to show up with my Orks. It would be a blast to get some games in against your mech Eldar.

Assuming we played it correctly last weekend, the change to rules regarding Flamer templates is just brutal. Lay all the flamer templates down, calculate the number of hits, then roll to wound. Big difference than 4th edition. If we indeed did play it correctly, I'd seriously consider 2 Destructors.

That's correct, much more devastating than in the 4th ed.