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So it has been well established that Psychic powers can be cast from within a transport, shooting powers simply requiring a fire point [which would include Eldritch Storm..even though it doesn't need LOS, right?].

But, can a Farseer cast Doom or Fortune on a squad inside a transport he is NOT in. So could he Fortune a squad of Scorpions in their transport while he is on a jetbike outside, while Dooming a squad of marines inside their Rhino, ready to blow up their transport...legal/illegal?

Ibushi

Since fortune isn't a shooting attack there's nothing in the core rules restricting it from targetting models in a Transport.

Since it is decided that a farseer in a transport is "on the table" for purposes of using her abilities and you would measure presumably from the hull of her transport wouldn't this similarly apply to a target unit being "on the table" and within 6" if their transport vehicle is within 6" of the farseer?

Heck you could even drive two falcons alongside eachother and fortune from one transport to the other.

P.S: Don't want to derail the thread but since this is here I figure throw it in rather than create a new thread since I expect it to be an easy answer. You can fortune vehicles to reroll their cover saves correct?

Vehicles don't ever ever get cover they get obscured target which is NOT cover. Though it is similar it is NOT the same. IF fortune says cover in the power (i don't have it so not sure) then its a no, if it says all saves then its a yes.

Red_Lives wrote:Vehicles don't ever ever get cover they get obscured target which is NOT cover. Though it is similar it is NOT the same. IF fortune says cover in the power (i don't have it so not sure) then its a no, if it says all saves then its a yes.

Ummmm, yes they do.

I think you're having 4th edition flashbacks. In 5th edition vehicles can get a cover save, and yes they can be fortuned.


As for the original question, Drunkenspleen has it. You can use powers on a squad in a transport and you'd just measure to the hull of the vehicle to see if they are in range.


While the rules definitely do seem to allow this, it also opens up the game for something *not* covered by the rules which is how are embarked units affected by enemy powers that make them do things, like fall back, go to ground, etc. The rules just don't say.

I suppose that clears it up pretty well, thanks all contributors:

You CAN cast powers on any squads INSIDE tanks so long as the hull of their transport in range of the caster.

This raises some really nasty dragon, banshee and Doom opportunities on nasty assault squads hidden in Land Raiders to be sure...Nice to know its legal

I'm guessing Fear of the Darkness wouldn't be able to affect embarked units though...or.??

Ibushi

ibushi wrote:

I'm guessing Fear of the Darkness wouldn't be able to affect embarked units though...or.??

Ibushi

Like I said, by the RAW embarked units should be affected by abilities that affect 'units within X inches'. The problem is the rules don't say what to do in those situations. It needs to be FAQ'd.

In the meantime, how do you think this should be played out?

Keep going with the 4th ed. "i'm in my transport - haha!" If FoD really can cause embarked passengers to disembark and run at -2 Ld it would be fairly insane, maybe even broken.

How would you play this, lacking an FAQ?

I'll bet FotD doesn't get FAQed since the SM codex is basically around the corner. Why would they bother working on a fix for something that'll be fixed by the codex release?

ibushi wrote:In the meantime, how do you think this should be played out?

Keep going with the 4th ed. "i'm in my transport - haha!" If FoD really can cause embarked passengers to disembark and run at -2 Ld it would be fairly insane, maybe even broken.

How would you play this, lacking an FAQ?

I would not try to make people get out.

This was a HORRIBLE 2nd edition mechanic.

As for how you measure from inside a vehicle to a unit in another...I'd say just measure from hull to hull.

GW does need to FAQ this stuff though.

You should add this to the general compilation stickied at the top of this forum.

ibushi wrote:In the meantime, how do you think this should be played out?

Keep going with the 4th ed. "i'm in my transport - haha!" If FoD really can cause embarked passengers to disembark and run at -2 Ld it would be fairly insane, maybe even broken.

How would you play this, lacking an FAQ?

I would personally play it as though (unless specified otherwise) embarked models never take damage from enemy shooting, such as Vibrocannons (besides whatever they suffer when their vehicle blows up) and they never have to Fall Back, go to ground or take Ld tests.

yakface wrote:

Red_Lives wrote:Vehicles don't ever ever get cover they get obscured target which is NOT cover. Though it is similar it is NOT the same. IF fortune says cover in the power (i don't have it so not sure) then its a no, if it says all saves then its a yes.

Ummmm, yes they do.

I think you're having 4th edition flashbacks. In 5th edition vehicles can get a cover save, and yes they can be fortuned.


As for the original question, Drunkenspleen has it. You can use powers on a squad in a transport and you'd just measure to the hull of the vehicle to see if they are in range.


While the rules definitely do seem to allow this, it also opens up the game for something *not* covered by the rules which is how are embarked units affected by enemy powers that make them do things, like fall back, go to ground, etc. The rules just don't say.

p.62 BGB "Vehicles do not benifit from cover in the same manor as infantry"

An obscured target functions almost identically to a cover save however since its not, its an OT save. This prevents things like infantry screening a tank, shooting through a thin treeline and other such things giving the tank cover. They used OT 50% rule at all times, if you throw such phrases around as "vehicles get cover" then people start arguing normal cover rules, like infantry screens and such. since p.62 makes no mention that infantry screens don't work. (though it explains the 50%rule and makes a distinction between OT and cover)

Red_Lives, you went to the trouble of looking up and quoting the BGB, but failed to read it"

p.62 BGB "If the target [a tank] is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a COVER SAVE against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a wound"

Also, the Eldar power simply says "may re-roll ANY SAVES"

I hope this clears it up, and doesn't take this thread further off-topic..

kthx

Red_Lives wrote:

p.62 BGB "Vehicles do not benifit from cover in the same manor as infantry"

Your quote has very much been taken out of context. The rules go on to say that vehicles have different rules for getting cover saves (as Ibushi has quoted), but they most definitely do take cover saves.

In fact, the rules even state that items that provide obscurement give the vehicle a 4+ cover save.

Vehicles do indeed get cover saves. the reference is used several times on page 62.

like i said earlier:
IF fortune says cover in the power (i don't have it so not sure) then its a no, if it says all saves then its a yes.

Since in the 1st paragraph "Vehicles do not benefit from cover in the same manor as infantry"

creates a new rule to be used. Though i do agree there does need to be a clearer distinction. Since infantry screens weren't excluded on p.62 like all other manor of cover was, if OT is referred to as a cover save it may create some confusion in some circles.

Red_Lives wrote:like i said earlier:
IF fortune says cover in the power (i don't have it so not sure) then its a no, if it says all saves then its a yes.

Since in the 1st paragraph "Vehicles do not benefit from cover in the same manor as infantry"

creates a new rule to be used. Though i do agree there does need to be a clearer distinction. Since infantry screens weren't excluded on p.62 like all other manor of cover was, if OT is referred to as a cover save it may create some confusion in some circles.

That is factually incorrect.

The rules go on to explain that how vehicles get a cover save is different. But the term "cover save" is used to describe what cover does for a vehicle, ergo vehicles take cover saves.

And yes, Fortune works on any failed save.

I think what we are trying to say, is that it is only your interpretation that is creating confusion.

the rulebook says it is a coversave, which is determined (3/4/5+) by the obscured target rules. When you roll the dice, you are rolling a coversave, and it does not get much more complicated than that.

As for the Eldar power, I already told you that it says ALL saves, which is in the codex under Farseer Psychic Powers. Forgot the page number, but I just looked it up.

I really don't think any clarification for the cover rules is necessary myself. Firstly, you use TLOS, secondly, tanks have their saves modified under the Obscured Target rules, finally, you roll a Cover Save. Done Deal.

I hope this clears it up

wait wait wait now i'm confused... since p.62 excludes area terrain not giving vehicles cover does that mean that shooting through gaps in a unit still provides a save? Since area terrain was given a special exemption? I thought it was a new and different rule to exclude all other rules for cover and "use this rule instead"

calm down, calm down. I can't answer any of these questions, because...

Everything is TLOS

So if a vehicle is 50% obscured by Anything in the physical world, not "terrain" as a concept of area terrain as it relates to infantry..it gets a 4+ cover save.

If it is significantly more than 50% covered by hard cover - like ruins - give it a 3+ save. If it is well covered, but by something weak like hedges..give it a 5+ cover save.

No more broad brush strokes, just get down and look at your tank each time. Don't think about it too hard.

Um, no. It doesn't work like that ibushi.


Red, vehicles get a cover save. They just 'qualify' for it differently.

If an infantry model is obscured *at all* (1% even) then it is qualified as getting a cover save.
A vehicle has to be obscured by at least 50% to get a cover save.

If infantry is in area terrain, it gets a cover save.
If a vehicle is in area terrain, it only gets a cover save if the physical terrain obscures 50%+

If you look 'through' area terrain pieces, then the infantry model is counted as getting a cover save.
The vehicle has to be physically obscured by the actual terrain pieces to count as in cover. (And 50%+)

So yes, vehicles don't benefit in the *same manner*, but they still benefit from cover, and still get cover saves.