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My thought is 6 Carnifex, 1-2 Hive Tyrants, Without Number gaunts. Not looking for super competitive list, but alternate to my DW/RW.

What I need to know is this. What is a Gunfex? What is a Dakkafex? Yes, it's noobish, but I'd rather know than assume. I assume Gunfex is venomcannon'd and Dakkafex is high rate of fire death spitter or something similar.

You sir, should read this article :

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica_Carnifex

For all your Carnifex needs.

great article, but it's still 4th Ed (I've put in a request to Yak to update it).

In particular, a lot of players aren't so keen on venom cannons any more, and the Barbed Strangler / TL Death Spitter combo is gaining a lot more attention.

Regardless, MAGNETISE YOUR FEX ARMS! - that will let you easily customise your army for one-off games against particular opponents, allow you to change weapons if you later expand into another style of nid army, and also protects you if a new codex comes out.

Without Number gaunts are getting a mixed reception in 5th Ed - some players love them. As they need no special modelling, they're worth a try

With running and cover saves being what they are, I think Zilla is the only power build to actually come out better.

Now:

Assault win=instant death for morale
TMCs=Running
Fleshooks=Plasma Grenades
Escalation=Gone
The whole army got countercharge for free
Cover saves are through anywhere at 4+
Bugs will screen eachother and give instant 4+ cover everywhere

You'll be fine with 6 fexes 2 tyrants and some gaunts. You just might be one among many.

Good luck!

MCs still need 50% of their model to be obscured before they can claim a coversave.

thehod wrote:MCs still need 50% of their model to be obscured before they can claim a coversave.

True but with the changes to the rules, the meta game is shifting away from low ap weapons like plasma and towards hail of fire type weapons. This means that your real armor save (particularly if you bump it up to 2+) is going to see use more often than not. Just watch out for melta guns.

Phoenix wrote:

thehod wrote:MCs still need 50% of their model to be obscured before they can claim a coversave.

True but with the changes to the rules, the meta game is shifting away from low ap weapons like plasma and towards hail of fire type weapons. This means that your real armor save (particularly if you bump it up to 2+) is going to see use more often than not. Just watch out for melta guns.

Right and Im waiting for the arguments to start, does a screen of termagaunts in front of a carnifex cause the fex to get 4+ cover, they're half as tall right? or not?

If not, how about Hormaguants, they're even taller... Or genestealers? What is 50% covered, the base, or the whole model, from models eye view right? Does that mean we have to check by every firing model? E gad. Could be wierd..

Creative modeling also makes me scared.

Or maybe the other way around, put the little ones in back....

There's an easy solution to the question of whether some models get cover saves from being behind other models: discuss the matter with your opponent prior to playing the game. You know, like reasonable people.

Augustus wrote:
Or maybe the other way around, put the little ones in back....

This is the best option. Losing a carnifex used to hurt since I also lost a scoring unit and fair number of VPs. Now they provide 4+ cover for the gaunts and genestealers running behind them. If they die, they die, but my opponent gains at most 1KP for it. I found it really puts my opponents between a rock and a hard place. If they shoot the guants, I get a 4+ cover save and the carnifexes are in their face. If they shoot the carnifexes, my scoring units are very difficult to dislodge from the objectives.

I agree that Zilla got a boost in 5th edition.

Augustus wrote:Right and Im waiting for the arguments to start, does a screen of termagaunts in front of a carnifex cause the fex to get 4+ cover, they're half as tall right? or not?

If not, how about Hormaguants, they're even taller... Or genestealers? What is 50% covered, the base, or the whole model, from models eye view right? Does that mean we have to check by every firing model? E gad. Could be wierd..

TRUE LOS. Bend down and look. If you can't agree, -1 to the cover save, done. Cover is determined if the model has cover from the majority of the firing squad.

Also, in the case of an MC, it has to literally be 50% covered. So basically you get down and look, and unless the models in front of it are covering 50% of it from view, it gets no save.

This makes it very hard to screen a MC. Might pull it off with your Gunfexes, but probably not so much with your Dakkafexes and Winged Tyrants.

That said, you can still screen a Dakkafex with another Dakkafex. If the enemy has a good round, and knocks a chunk of wounds off one, move another to screen him. Now they have to decide if they want to finish the other through 4+ cover, or start on the new one.

Fexes are more useful screening other models (Zoanthropes pair nicely with them this way), than getting screened.

Basically, for the purposes of cover saves, an MC is a tank. Can you give a rhino a cover save with marines? Not unless you have a totally solid wall with no gaps visible...

At least your gaunts won't grant cover saves for your
opponent if you try to shoot at them with your Carnis.

Maybe you'll see more Crawler-fexes hit the table to get
them their cover save.

Crawler-fexes, Crawler-Wraithlords, Crawler-Avatars, Crawler whatever will, at least I hope, get dinged in sportsmanship, eliminating them from winning the tournament overall.

Besides, if that's what you need to do to win, get some therapy. Your self esteem is lacking.

Lormax wrote:Crawler-fexes, Crawler-Wraithlords, Crawler-Avatars, Crawler whatever will, at least I hope, get dinged in sportsmanship, eliminating them from winning the tournament overall.

Besides, if that's what you need to do to win, get some therapy. Your self esteem is lacking.

Does it hurt to be so self-righteous?

Lormax wrote:Crawler-fexes, Crawler-Wraithlords, Crawler-Avatars, Crawler whatever will, at least I hope, get dinged in sportsmanship, eliminating them from winning the tournament overall.

Besides, if that's what you need to do to win, get some therapy. Your self esteem is lacking.

I knew a guy who ran Iyanden where he can take 6 wraithlords and they all crouched and were like crab walkers crawling on hands and feet.

He never won a tournament due to sportsmanship though. Even when another person ran a similar 6 wraithlord list, his were standing up and well-painted.

nkelsch wrote:

Lormax wrote:Crawler-fexes, Crawler-Wraithlords, Crawler-Avatars, Crawler whatever will, at least I hope, get dinged in sportsmanship, eliminating them from winning the tournament overall.

Besides, if that's what you need to do to win, get some therapy. Your self esteem is lacking.

I knew a guy who ran Iyanden where he can take 6 wraithlords and they all crouched and were like crab walkers crawling on hands and feet.

He never won a tournament due to sportsmanship though. Even when another person ran a similar 6 wraithlord list, his were standing up and well-painted.

Iyanden could never take six wraithlords, at least not since 3rd. They could take one as a troop for every unit of WG, but not six.

Even if you model them to crawl, aren't you more likely to give the enemy cover saves from your shooting?

Polonius wrote:

Iyanden could never take six wraithlords, at least not since 3rd. They could take one as a troop for every unit of WG, but not six.

They got 3 heavy support and then one for every unit of wraith guard in 3rd edition. And back then it was 1-way blocking LOS so they could shoot through their own units but you couldn't shoot them back. The new rules basically makes everyone a GROT cover which I am ok with as an ORK player.

Crawler units for 5th edition will probably be more for CC/assault big creatures rather than shooty ones. I doubt we will see much of them, but the horrible problems of TrueLOS from the olden days are still around for some of us.

I am going to run in my first 5th tourney next month so I am curious to see what pops up.

Maybe you'll see more Crawler-fexes

Maybe... I'm thinking of converting some Lowanthropes.

Is this still relevant to 5th edition?

dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica_Carnifex

I understand the basic weapon load and names of certain Carnifex.

With run and counter charge 1-6 CC carnifex seem good to me.

With run and counter charge 1-6 CC carnifex seem good to me.

More importantly, they have the new combat resolution system... A CC Fex is pretty likely to win combat by a few wounds, and so fairly likely to break a lot of units. Not much chance to run the unit down, but overall it makes them less vulnerable to getting tarpitted, which was previously an issue.

Plus Powerfists have one less attack...

So I could see them being much more effective in this edition. Keep them cheap, and use them in Elite slots. Dual Scytals, +1 WS and Mace Tail, that's what I'd look at.

The main strikes against them is that other builds are (or were) better. The Dakkafex is great, and only got better in 5e. Volume fire has become much more important, and they put out volumes. Gunfexes are not SO great, but they're very important to the list, so you don't want to give them up.

I think CC Fexes could work nicely, give them a shot.