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Well I was looking through the codex and was wondering if anyone had thought of using a direavenger squad in a similar way to how the Tau use their fire warriors for fish of fury.

Well the thinking goes like this, put ten dire avengers and an exarch with a bladestorm and possibly defend in a wave serpeant then run up, dump them infront of the enemy unit use the bladestorm power for 30 str 4 BS 4 shots then charge in. Hopefully you should get in combat through the next turn cause they aren't really CC oreinted and then they can reboard the serpeant and repeat. For about 247 points and it uses a troop to do it it seems likea reall decent tactic to me.

What unit can they beat in CC? Any unit they could win against in CC would have been killed with Bladestorm.

I do think that pairs of Dire Avengers double-teaming squads could work, but they should probably focus on shooting from the 13"-18" range to avoid being charged. Hop back in next turn and then run away.

If you model the wave serpent high enough, you can shoot from behind the wave serpent and make it really hard for the surviving unit to charge you. Yes they can assault the wave serpent but they will need 6's to hit and it is armor 10.

For fish of fury, the tactic is to make a V with the Devilfish and then shoot from behind them. Then, to be charged, the enemy has to move around the fishy and get to you. I could see it working out just fine. Maybe I'll try it sometime.

Great unit but I don't think you can shoot through skimmers anymore.

Tacobake, with Real LOS rules in 5th, if you can see under the skimmer, you can shoot your target.

CK

Using DA for "serpent of Fury" is almost a third more expensive than the tau version, and not quite as effective.

Using DA for "serpent of Fury" is almost a third more expensive than the tau version, and not quite as effective.

I disagree:

Tau:
12 firewarriors = 24 shots @ 12", 12 hits, 8 wounds (vs MEQ).

Without vehicle upgrades, this runs them 200, or 25 points/wound.



Eldar:
10 DA w/ dual-catapult exarch + bladestorm = 27 shots + 5 exarch shots @ 18", yielding 22 hits, 11 wounds (also vs. MEQ)

Without vehicle upgrades, this setup runs 252, or 22 points/wound.

---

The Tau can add benefits that they lose doing the Fish of Fury (disruption pod), and they can use markerlights to get more hits. But, the eldar can have a farseer doom the enemy for more wounds, or guide the dire avengers for more hits. Clearly, both can benefit from synergy within their own army.

But, taken as individual elements, when you throw bladestorm into the mix, the eldar are actually more efficient in their preemptive strike.

The cost for effective units is actually:

Tau:

12x FW (120).
Devilfish with: SMS, Decoy, Disruption, Multi, Spines, and Targeting Array (135).

Eldar:

DA x10 w/Exarch w/ASC and Blade (152).
Wave Serpent with: TL Catapult, TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones (110).

245 versus 262.

Vehicle Performance:

Tau Devilfish can move 6" and fire 7 S5 shots at BS4, or move 12" and fire 4 S5 shots at BS4.

Eldar Wave Serpent can move anything and fire 3 S6 shots at BS3 (Twin linked), plus 2 S4 shots at BS3 (Twin linked).

Redbeard already ran the numbers for the infantry.

While the Exarch with Bladestorm is a nice toy, I think you get more overall list efficiency by not bringing him at all. Why? Well, I don't know who you guys play, but Tau Fire Warriors don't get to get back in very often. They get out, they either get shot dead...or their transport gets blown up.
They are just too close to the enemy.

While it might seem counterintuitive, when you want to run a army like this--you will usually either kill most of a squad (non-marines in small amounts), need a second squad to support you (non-marines in large amounts) or not kill the squad even with another squad helping (because it's marines).

So the reality is, you need two turns of shooting from two units to finish off a marine unit. Against everyone else, being at 18" means you are alot less likely to be assaulted than FW are, so you can actually fire again.

So you can have 27+5, or you can have 36. I'd rather have the 36 myself.

Being able to fall back after your transport dies (which can happen with both vehicles, more so the Devilfish because meltas cut right through it) and fire is much better than having to fall back and do nothing [except get shot or assaulted] or having to charge in to CC [where DA aren't shooting].

Saving those 32 points per vehicle (usually x4) and having Fire prisms as the anti-tank of your army while the DA kill infantry is a viable army, quite similar to railheads + fish.

Not that either one scared me much in 4th, but in 5th they are quite a bit stronger. With the way I see people changing their armies up, I see the Wave Serpent being the better choice. The Fish gets a 4+ save, but has to get close. The Serpent can just move 12" and the DA can usually fire straight away, on turn 1. Fish cannot. Meltas break fish, and bounce (sort of) off of Wave Serpents.

So if your style of play is this one, I'd go with Eldar over Tau.

It does sound like a good tactic but you have to make sure to drop them someplace where they are not going to be rapid fired off the board once your enemy gets a chance to return fire.

Stelek wrote:The cost for effective units is actually:

Tau:

12x FW (120).
Devilfish with: SMS, Decoy, Disruption, Multi, Spines, and Targeting Array (135).

Eldar:

DA x10 w/Exarch w/ASC and Blade (152).
Wave Serpent with: TL Catapult, TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones (110).

245 versus 262.

Vehicle Performance:

Tau Devilfish can move 6" and fire 7 S5 shots at BS4, or move 12" and fire 4 S5 shots at BS4.

Eldar Wave Serpent can move anything and fire 3 S6 shots at BS3 (Twin linked), plus 2 S4 shots at BS3 (Twin linked).

Redbeard already ran the numbers for the infantry.

While the Exarch with Bladestorm is a nice toy, I think you get more overall list efficiency by not bringing him at all. Why? Well, I don't know who you guys play, but Tau Fire Warriors don't get to get back in very often. They get out, they either get shot dead...or their transport gets blown up.
They are just too close to the enemy.

While it might seem counterintuitive, when you want to run a army like this--you will usually either kill most of a squad (non-marines in small amounts), need a second squad to support you (non-marines in large amounts) or not kill the squad even with another squad helping (because it's marines).

So the reality is, you need two turns of shooting from two units to finish off a marine unit. Against everyone else, being at 18" means you are alot less likely to be assaulted than FW are, so you can actually fire again.

So you can have 27+5, or you can have 36. I'd rather have the 36 myself.

Being able to fall back after your transport dies (which can happen with both vehicles, more so the Devilfish because meltas cut right through it) and fire is much better than having to fall back and do nothing [except get shot or assaulted] or having to charge in to CC [where DA aren't shooting].

Saving those 32 points per vehicle (usually x4) and having Fire prisms as the anti-tank of your army while the DA kill infantry is a viable army, quite similar to railheads + fish.

Not that either one scared me much in 4th, but in 5th they are quite a bit stronger. With the way I see people changing their armies up, I see the Wave Serpent being the better choice. The Fish gets a 4+ save, but has to get close. The Serpent can just move 12" and the DA can usually fire straight away, on turn 1. Fish cannot. Meltas break fish, and bounce (sort of) off of Wave Serpents.

So if your style of play is this one, I'd go with Eldar over Tau.

So your suggesting something like this?

210 Eldrad
145 Farseer

168 6 Harlequins with Troop Leader(Power Weapon), 5 Harlequin Kisses, 2 Fussion Pistols

220 10xDire Avengers with a Wave Serpent
220 10xDire Avengers with a Wave Serpent
220 10xDire Avengers with a Wave Serpent
168 7xPathfinders

160 Fire Prism with Holofield, Sprite Stones
160 Fire Prism with Holofield, Sprite Stones
175 Falcon with Starcannon, Holofield, Sprite Stones

1846

Well to be fair, the ability of both units to survive is pretty much identical: T3 4+. FW have 2 more guys to take wounds, DA have better LD.

Nothing wrong with a list like that.

I'd probably do just one seer and grab another DA unit myself.

Might have a problem with heavy tank builds and MC though.

The list is not really competitive. In particular, it contains no save places for the Farseers. I wouldn't put them into the DA Serpents, even not with Fish of Serpent.

Hmm, well the reason I was considering the charging into close combat after was in the hope that you would have wittled down their numbers enough so you could simply swamp them afterwards. Then you jump on your serpent and repeat.

Though I was intending to use this tactic in dous, never having less than two DA squads go after the target at a time.

Double DA fare better. Jumping back in...really doesn't happen, since most armies will shoot your DA to pieces. Then you have a 3 man scoring unit. lol