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I just played my first game as high elves against the bew Dark Elves. It was overall a fun game, and I came out the winner, but we ran into a little question. He charged his Dark Ark Corsairs into a unit of Swordmasters. Said unit of sword masters had the Standard of Balance "The unit carrying the Standard of Balance, and any enemy unit in base contact with it, is immune to psychology. in addition, they also loose hatred and frenzy abilities (in the same way as a unit that has alrady fought and lost a round of combat)." our question was would the Dark Elves lose their hatred for High Elves since they don't lose their hatred for High Elves after a riound of combat? we rolled off, and the DE lost hatred, but I decided I would ask.

Dark Elves lose their hatred only during that combat. Hatred is a subset of psychology, so anything immune to psychology is also "immune" to hatred and therefore loses its benefits.

However, once combat is over, the Dark Elves regain their hatred as normal. From the WHFB book: "...in the first turn of any[/] close combat" and "...subsequently fight as normal for the rest of the [i]combat"

groz- check your rule book for what immune to psych means. (hint: immune ot fear, terror and panic).

Arion- That is a very good question and it doesn't have a clear answer based on the wording in the dark elf book. By RAW, probably not since the Dark Elves have the special rule "Eternal Hatred" and not just regular hatred which the banner gets rid of. Most people I imagine will be playing this that the banner works vs. Dark elves except for Executioners who get there rerolls from there own special rule.

You mean Black Guard, who have 'Warrior Elite', not Executioners.

As a Dark Elf player, I would love it if "Eternal hatred" was not affected by the Standard of Balance, but I think trying to argue that is wishful thinking. Hatred is hatred, Eternal or otherwise. Frenzy is frenzy. I haven't heard any Empire players arguing that Flagellants would get their frenzy back in the second round because of the "Crazed" rule.

The SoB is going to be one of those must-have items for any HE general facing the Dark Elfs. And as soon as we know which unit has it, that unit will be shot and magicked to death.

steinerp wrote:groz- check your rule book for what immune to psych means. (hint: immune ot fear, terror and panic).

Prove that "Immune to all Psychology" does not include all of the chapter named Pscyhology.

steinerp wrote: Arion- That is a very good question and it doesn't have a clear answer based on the wording in the dark elf book. By RAW, probably not since the Dark Elves have the special rule "Eternal Hatred" and not just regular hatred which the banner gets rid of. Most people I imagine will be playing this that the banner works vs. Dark elves except for Executioners who get there rerolls from there own special rule.

Now this is a compelling argument--"Eternal Hatred" may not be the same characteristic as "Hatred".

My interpretation is that, in the same sense that other armies have skills/attributes/items geared against their historical antitheses (Grey Knights and Chaos, Dwarves and Orcs), the tone of the banner's rules (as quoted by Arion) imply a negation of their Dark Elf brethren's advantage of Hatred.

groz wrote:

steinerp wrote:groz- check your rule book for what immune to psych means. (hint: immune ot fear, terror and panic).

Prove that "Immune to all Psychology" does not include all of the chapter named Pscyhology.

p. 33 of the little red book

Immune to Psychology

Troops that are Immune to Psychology (sometimes also called 'Immune to all Psychology') automatically pass all their Panic, Fear and Terror tests and are not automatically broken if defeated in combat by outnumbering Fear-causing enemies, but take the Break test as normal.

Troops that are Immune to Psychology may never flee as a charge reaction...

The hatred rule on the Standard of Balance comes in addition to Immune to Psychology.

not exactly the response I expected, but that is the ruling I would argue for. Hatred is hatred, and whether it is eternal or not it seemes clear to me that the intent of the banner is to put both sides on an equal playing field when it comes to hatred, frenzy and pshycology.

groz wrote:

Prove that "Immune to all Psychology" does not include all of the chapter named Pscyhology.

Where did that "all" come from? The Standard of Balance doesn't say anything about being immune to "all" psychology. I think you may still have some 6th-edition thought-habits to break.

Those are defiantely 6th edtion habits. Dont feel bad i tend to have flash backs in turnies and get the rules all mixed up.

fellblade: The current rule references Immune to all
psychology, but only as a parenthetical. However, it doesn't
say that it means all psychology rules, just the instances
described.

Malfred is correct.

As for Eternal Hatred, the rules for that ability are very clear. They state that all Dark Elves have Hatred. And in addition to that they will always Hate High Elves in every round of combat.

As for the standard they will loose their hatred for as long as the Banner Specifies.