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So, I was thinking; now that Vehicles get actual saves, it might be worth it to Fortune (and Guide) some War Walkers whilst they stay in cover.

EDIT: I have a full 1750(1746) point list at the bottom of this page, check it out!

I have a starting idea for a list, but not sure what else to do with it, any help would be appreciated. =)

-HQ---Eldrad Ulthran---210 points

-HS---Dark Reapers x5---217 points
Exarch, Tempest Launcher, Crack Shot

-HS---War Walkers x3---210 points
Eldar Missile Launcher x2(x3)


They all sit in cover, Eldrad joins and Fortunes the Reaper squad and Guides and Fortunes the War Walkers; seems like it would create an extremely devasting impenetrable wall of unstoppable chaotic apocalyptic madness!!!

Any thoughts?

Well it's a very shooty firebase, but you might want to use scatter lasers instead. Missile Launchers don't need guide.

What do you want the rest of your army to be?

Yeah, I was thinking of Scatter Lasers, however, depending on the rest of my army I may need the anti-tank weapons...what's wrong with Guiding missile launchers? With a BS of 3 I will probably be scattering a several inches off and with Guide the re-roll will be super helpful...and I don't want to miss shooting those tanks. =/ Better than guiding the Reapers, but yeh Scats would be nice.

For the rest of the army, I was thinking I need something to distract the enemy...Unfortuned Avatar...? Need LOTS of mobility to balance things out...maybe another anti-tank or anti-horde unit...DA's? Spiders? ...Fire Dragons?

Uhh the regular missiles are krak, and don't have a template.

They just hit or don't, but since everyone has a cover save...why fire them? They're only good against Marines and vehicles.

The plasma missiles scatter, but those are S4 and do nothing to vehicles...and with 6 of them, you will hit something.

And the reality of this army is, you need survivable stuff because if you bring anything else....everything will go into those units and you'll end up with a reaper unit and the war walkers. Which can only hurt 2 units per turn, while the enemy kills the rest of your army and moves assault/reserve units towards your firebase.

You misread my whole sentance, I meant re-rolling the template will be helpful, AND when I fire krak 4's to hit is tough and re-rolling so I don't miss the tanks is super important, =/ lol...why would you think I'd shoot the Krak at infantry and the Plasma at vehicles...?

If I need to kill some infantry (of course I can't hurt vehicles with Str 4 not sure how you mixed this up) I can re-roll my scatter and probably kill a small unit of 10 in 1 turn even with 3+ saves or 4+ cover saves

And Guide will still be helpful shooting the krak at vehicles...6 shots- 3 will miss, re-roll I will probably only miss 1..2 on average...4-5 Str 8 shots on anything besides F 14 will do at least 2 weapon destroyed/immobilised if not destroy it.

I don't understand you're last paragraph, if the enemy were try to kill everything else I had without even trying to touch these 2 units, I'm pretty sure their whole army would be dead by then..I've killed 6 marines a turn with the reaper exarch alone...then throw in the other 4 reapers and usually the whole squad is dead... the walkers can kill a unit of fire warriors (even in cover) or 10-15 orks or even a 12-13 front armor vehicle every turn..

Everytime I field reapers or walkers it's usually my opponents first priority,

EDIT: be back in a bit, taking a shower.

5E is moving people to lots of guys or lots of Mech.

Example:

Your reapers make 10 orks take cover saves, and 5 die.

So?

Example:

You face a Chimera army. Your reapers are pretty useless.

Your scatter lasers can glance 1 chimera to death a turn.

See?

I don't run these units because they aren't take-all-comers units.

One problem you will face is actually getting your war walkers in cover. It is not sufficient to simply stick them in area terrain or put them behind a few trees: vehicles (walkers included) gain a cover save only if at least 50% of the model is out of the attacker's line of sight. That may not be easy to achieve with a war walker, let alone three.

I don't really agree with Stelek's assessment of those units' firepower. Reapers should kill more than 5 orks if the exarch is using crack shot and the tempest launcher, which he most certainly should. It's true that reapers are good against infantry and not good against vehicles, but with Eldar especially, you shouldn't expect every unit to be useful in every situation. Eldar are all about getting the units in the right place at the right time. Fire dragons, for example, are devastating against vehicles and heavily armored troops, but they're fairly worthless against horde armies. War walkers with scatter lasers, on the other hand, are useful against almost all infantry and against lightly armored targets. Only targets with high armor values have nothing to fear, and very few armies will present you with nothing but high-AV targets. The big problem with the war walkers, as mentioned above, is that it will be hard to give them cover saves, and their puny armor certainly won't protect them.

Stelek wrote:5E is moving people to lots of guys or lots of Mech.

Example:

Your reapers make 10 orks take cover saves, and 5 die.

So?

Example:

You face a Chimera army. Your reapers are pretty useless.

Your scatter lasers can glance 1 chimera to death a turn.

See?

I don't run these units because they aren't take-all-comers units.

...You can't possibly expect every unit (especially Eldar) to be able to do EVERYTHING? Are you joking? DA's can't ever kill any vehicles above a 10...guess I'm not going to take any Avengers ever...eh...my Fire Dragons are useless against a horde of Orkz...forget them...WHAT?!

You're right, my reapers won't hurt any tanks.....but they can statistically kill more marines per turn than any other unit in the game, and they can certainly kill more than 5 orks a turn, the Exarch alone can kill 8-10 with a good roll, 2 direct hits with 5-6 under each, 4+ to wound re-rollable no saves?? come on, 5 orks?

If I had war walkers with scatter lasers obviously I would need a lot more heavy weapon options do I CAN efficiently deal with tanks, which is the reason I am considering taking the missile launchers because with only 1 heavy slot left, my options are limited...but not only can my 6 guided missile launchers effectively kill a medium armored tank-probably 1 per turn-they can also take down horde units extremely well...come on, that's got to be one of the best weapons in the game for an all-comers unit.

EDIT: I hadn't thought about actually getting the war walkers into cover...nice catch...that most certainly will be a problem =(

My army:

Seer Councils, kill everything.

Fire Dragons, kill everything.

Guardian Jetbikes, kill everything.

Fire Prisms, kill everything.

This has been fun.

:O, Looking at you're army as a whole yes, that's why it's called an all-comers army, the units themselves aren't all comers, impossible.

Your Fire Dragons won't do much to a horde of footsloggin boyz.
Your Seer Council can't really hurt a unit of terminators.
What are your guardian jetbikes going to do against plague marines, or a Tau Skyray? You gona try and kill it with a single singing spear?
2 Prisms can do pretty much anything, THAT I can agree with ^_^

Sure, all of you're units can kill everything...but not efficiently, the game is obviously supposed to be based around taking a balanced army with counter-units to fulfill different objectives, otherwise there wouldn't be force organization charts so you can't take an army of entirely all the same thing if there were such a unit that can do anything and everything..

And it's not like there are units set in stone as being the best and only units to take, or else every army list would be the same. =/

Lonely_Penguin wrote::O, Looking at you're army as a whole yes, that's why it's called an all-comers army, the units themselves aren't all comers, impossible.

Impossible??

Lonely_Penguin wrote:Your Fire Dragons won't do much to a horde of footsloggin boyz.

S5, let's say I tank shock them into position so I hit 10.

Re-roll to wound....wounding on 3's.

6/3 so 9 die. 4 meltagun shots, 3 die.

12 dead. Nothing?

If I tank shock them particularly well with multiple tanks, I can smoke a ton of boyz.

Lonely_Penguin wrote:Your Seer Council can't really hurt a unit of terminators.

Surely you jest.

On the charge with 33 attacks hitting on 3, hit with 22.

Wound on 2+, doom up I re-roll so let's see:

22/6 is little bit more than 3 wounds...so odds are I caused 22 wounds.

3 Termies die before they swing.

Thanks to GW nerf, most termie squads are 5 strong.

So 2 power fists swing, 4 attacks. Hit on 4, wound on 2.
We'll just give 'em both wounds to make the math easier.

I save on 4+ with a 4+ re-roll.

So I save one, maybe one gets through but not likely.

Nothing?

Lonely_Penguin wrote:What are your guardian jetbikes going to do against plague marines, or a Tau Skyray? You gona try and kill it with a single singing spear?

Toss out a S5 template, 8 S4 Twin-linked shots, 6 S6 shots @ BS3; Tau Skyray I have 3 witchblade attacks (I don't think much of spearlocks). Odds not in my favor, but those Guardian jetbikes still have a chance to hurt anything the Tau have got. Tau can't say the same...and who plays Skyrays? I want to play against them. lol

Of course, the reality is...I can dance at 24" against PM forever, and they can't do jack to me. Skyray, why would I bother? Oooh it's gonna markerlight me and fire 2 seekers? Nooooooooo!

Lonely_Penguin wrote:2 Prisms can do pretty much anything, THAT I can agree with ^_^

Yay. One correct.

Lonely_Penguin wrote:And it's not like there are units set in stone as being the best and only units to take, or else every army list would be the same. =/

Good! I feel your anger. Use it! Force GW to make better lists!

Lonely_Penguin wrote:Sure, all of you're units can kill everything...but not efficiently, the game is obviously supposed to be based around taking a balanced army with counter-units to fulfill different objectives, otherwise there wouldn't be force organization charts so you can't take an army of entirely all the same thing if there were such a unit that can do anything and everything..

And that is why you fail.

MM, I do not commentariate on lists often, especcially not if Stelek is involved, because he knows it all. He is the master. No one can be his equal, because he is so great....

After that note of Sarcasm (really I did not mean it....)

It is possible to beat Stelek's list, but it depends on how he uses it. He says he can charge and kill everything? I say good, kill my 5 termies, let them run and die. The rest of the army will take out the council. They are fortuned (If I don't bring a librarian, which I would bring), but enough small arms-fire will destroy them...

All in all there is a counter, but it has to be found. I am going to say that having a few large (10+) meq units to rapid fire them to death is enough. If you take out a few it will be enough, as everything that gets killed is a step closer to permanently dismantle the unit. Besides, his unit of warlocks with farseer (minimal upgrades so they do what he says is around 500 to 600 points (I think closer to 600)). At those points levels I think I can get at his bikes in one way or another and kill a few off...

But to close as I started, the utterly unvincible stelek has a solution to this as well, as he uses the rest off his army to support the warlocks. I on the other hand waste the rest of my army at picking my own nose. Therefore the great Stelek wins, and I lose...

I now bow before Stelek and accept punishment for speaking about his greatness....

Edit: some spellingmisstakes are taken out...

LordRavurion wrote:MM, I do not commentariate on lists often, especcially not if Stelek is involved, because he knows it all. He is the master. No one can be his equal, because he is so great....

After that note of Sarcasm (really I did not mean it....)

But to close as I started, the utterly unvincible stelek has a solution to this as well, as he uses the rest off his army to support the warlocks. I on the other hand waste the rest of my army at picking my own nose. Therefore the great Stelek wins, and I lose...

I now bow before Stelek and accept punishment for speaking about his greatness....

Interesting, you can read minds!


Oh well, forget the War Walkers thing then, I'll just use Stelek's list in friendly play for the rest of my life...

Rule 1. Because Stelek says something does not make it right.

Rule 2. Because Stelek says something does not make it wrong either!

Yes, of course you can counter his list. There is not a single army list it is possible to devise for 40k that does not have a counter. The point of any list, however, is whether it is competetive against the majority of opponents.
The original issue was whether EML's or Scatter Lasers were a better loadout for War Walkers. May I humbly suggest one of each?
vs armour you get 4x S6 + 1x S8
vs infantry you get 4x S6 + 1x S4blast


See? Peace can break out!

I understand where you're coming from with the warwalkers, but scatter lasers are better for them.. each pump out 8 shots.. that's 24 for a squad..

EML is great, but I find it's better to use on mobil units. Take a serphent for your troops or elites with a twin linked EML. Moving 12" and having 48" range is nasty

I was not bashing anyone (at least not really), but if someone makes it sounds like his list is the be all end all, then I respond like that. Stelek just seems to do it more often...

In short btw and back on topic, scatter and missile, would be a nice combo, but it has the potential of having 12 shots for the unit with no place to go. IMHO the points are well spent with the EML or the scatters. If needing antitank and anti infantry is a nice extra I would vote EML.. Depends on the rest of the list...

(on a side note, I usually play 1500 and I realised steleks list is 2000 or 2250, depending on loadout. in those pointsvalues I can see better why an uberunit can and will work. still not my cup of thea...)

Don't let Stelek's abrasive nature get to you. Here on Dakka we refer to it as "Stelek being Stelek." He can't help himself and Yakface wont ban him so we are stuck with Stelek being Stelek.

It's all good, just a friendly conversation! ^_^

So, I finished the list and I'd like to see what you all think...hmm, let's have at it!

-HQ---Eldrad Ulthran---210 points

-Troop---Dire Avengers x8---128 points
Exarch, Dual Shuri-Cats, Bladestorm
-Dire Avenger Wave Serpent---130 points
Shuri-Cannon Mount, Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers

-Troop---Dire Avengers x8---128 points
Exarch, Dual Shuri-Cats, Bladestorm
-Dire Avenger Wave Serpent---130 points
Shuri-Cannon Mount, Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers

-Elite---Fire Dragons x10---160 points
-Fire Dragon Wave Serpent---130 points
Shuri-Cannon Mount, Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launchers

-Elite---Howling Banshees x6---128 points
Exarch, Executioner, War Shout, Acrobatic

-Heavy---Falcon---175 points
Shuri-Cannon Mount, Scatter Laser, Holo-Fields

-Heavy---Dark Reapers x5---217 points
Exarch, Tempest Launcher, Crack Shot

-Heavy---War Walkers x3---210 points
Eldar Missile Launcher x2(x3)

TOTAL=1746 points
Basically, I want to try and kill every unit the enemy controls in a single turn.

You have about 38 ranged attacks a round. That will not kill many units in a turn. The best way to accomplish your goal is massed fire. There is nothing in the Eldar arsenal that puts out firepower in the volume of scatter lasers. So, if I wanted the max amount of fire power from an Eldar list I would load up on 9 warwalkers with scatterlasers. That is 72 shots right there. Then add scats to the 3 wave serpents and that is 12 more shots + the 9 from the shuri cannons. Dump the banshees for more DA's and have 30 DA's open up when your opponent gets in range on your turn 2 or 3. That is an additional 96 (?) shots.

That is your best build for an alpha striking Eldar shooty list at 1750.

With the above build. If you go first and move the 3 WS's up less than 6 and you get in range for the alpha strike and Eldrad fortunes 2 squads of warwalkers.

72 shots from war walkers = 36 (+12 fortuned) = 48 hits
12 shots from wave serpents = 6 (+3 from twin link) + 4 hits from shuri cannons = 13 hits

61 hits at S:6 which would wound 51 T:4 models. That is 17 dead marines or 43 dead Orks.

But there is no antitank. So if I have 3 battlewagons with orks nothing can hurt me in round 1, maybe round 2... The EML gives a chance to hurt me. (although I could set a mek up behind the vehicles, so he grants Kff-saves on the vehicles...)

Oh and with the approximately 150ish points left you will not have enough antitank possibilities...
Besides, cc-possibilities are minimal at best, as the DA will be shooty, not assaulty...

First of all, a battlewagon has 12 side armor. Your warwalkers have scout to reposition, but more importantly, Eldrad has divination to redeploy 2+ units of yours before turn 1. If that is not enough help to get side shots on the very popular 3 battlewagon army, then I can't help you.

The point is, the OP wants "to try and kill every unit the enemy controlls in a single turn" I think this has the best chance to accomplish this against the most likely opponents. Yes it will struggle against the rare 3 battlewagon Orks, the all LR Black Templars and even against the 3 monolith Necrons. But against the infantry heavy lists that MOST people play it will have the best chance of achieving the OP's goal.

Okay, maybe saying destroying EACH unit is a bit over exaggerating, but I'm sure I can put some hurt in most units to the point where the opponent really has no chance to come back from a loss on either the first or second turn, I probably won't attack any vehicles until then too, unless they're some low armor-high threat ones.

So, do you like the list? I am going to try it for fun. Because it is not balanced, I would not take it to a serious event. It does look like fun though.

Yep, you're right though, just for friendly matches.

I haven't sat down to figure out how effective blast templates really are in the new edition. I've used them a fair amount so far and I do like them quite a bit, but I don't have a good enough feel for them to accurately compare them to direct fire weapons. That being said, 6 guided blast templates are going to do a lot of damage as will scatter lasers. It's up to you if you want to spend the extra points to get a unit that can do both anti infantry and anti tank or if you just want to have them specialize in anti infantry and be cheaper. I go for the cheaper option myself, but that's because I like to specialize.

You might also want to spread out your anti tank power a bit. For one, all your serpents have missile launchers on them, and that's probably not the best of ideas. I would give at least one of the dire avenger serpents (probably both actually) bright lances. This will mean that you have some anti tank power around with 36" range that can work on enemy armor effectively. Your unit of fire dragons is also overkill. Unless you are hunting down large terminator squads, 6-8 dragons is plenty of fire power to bring down most targets. You can trim the squad down a bit and use the points for the afore mentioned bright lance upgrades.

Another thing you may want to consider while you are adjusting your dragon squad is to drop them down to 6 men and put them in the flacon. You can then use the points to bump up your banshee squad and put them in the wave serpent that the dragons used to be in. This will give them a much needed squad size increase while maintaining the mobility of the army as a whole.

As for the armament of the falcon, a scatter laser probably isn't the best choice. If you move 6", you can fire everything, but if you move over that, you can only shoot one weapon. That and if you are going only 6" what do you want to shoot both a scatter laser and a puls laser at? The scatter laser is good against horde units but the puls laser isn't. The puls laser is good against terminators and other heavy infantry but the scatter laser isn’t'. The puls laser is decent against vehicles, but the scatter laser struggles. All in all, you have a couple of options depending on what you want the falcon to do. A star cannon would make it a well rounded heavy infantry killer. A bright lance would make it a good tank killer. And a missile launcher would make it a very mobile vehicle since it could move 12 and fire both weapons (if you shoot plasma) or it can hold still and let lose with some anti tank fire.

I envisioned a list like this once upon a time, but I used scatter lasers. Your anti-tank can be in the form of Guardians, Fire Dragons, or even Swooping Hawks with Intercept and maybe Skyleap (don't underestimate Haywire Grenades!). Guide+Doom+24 Scatter laser shots=Anything you want, dead.

You could also do purely Dark Reapers. That gives you all the anti-infantry you will ever want or need.

Templates are toooo good now. It at least makes up for the cover save situation - I carry a couple of missiles with my SMe and frags have been doing 50% more than they ever were before. Have been unfortunate with flamers in past few weeks though, in that I've only gotten to fire one once...