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Okay, in my copious spare time (which can be evidenced by my frequency of posting here recently), I've been tossing around some ideas about Chaos Daemons. On paper there's a lot of goodness in the Bluescribes...namely the combination of Bolt, Pavane, and the multitude of other gifts they've got access to.

However, I'm stumped when it comes to figuring out exactly how they're supposed to be played, namely, how "we are legion" and "watch this" interact.

We Are Legion:
During the shooting phase, the Daemon does not have to target all of its ranged weapons against the same target. Instead, it may fire any of its weapons at a different target (declare all targets before rolling to hit). It can then choose to assault any of the enemies...

Watch this:
In their shooting phase, before using the second ranged attack, roll a d6. on a 4-6 proceed as normal. On a 1-3 they will use once again the same power that they just used.

text in bold is my emphasis.

The question I have arises out of this: What does it mean to use the second ranged attack? This becomes important because it determines when you have to select the second target.

My initial gut reaction was that it was a no-brainer...you had to select both targets before rolling for the second power. (and as a consequence, your second target could end up having a useless power used on it). Which also essentially made the Bluescribes useless.

But then I took a closer look, and realized that you don't have to declare all targets until you roll to hit. And you check to see what second power you can use sometime before you use it. So by RAW...you can roll to see what your second power is before you use your first power at all...so you'll know when picking targets which powers you'll be able to use that turn.

Which struck me as kind of odd...but by RAW, it seemed legal. Or to construct a deductive argument:
P1 - The Blue Scribes may fire at multiple targets in the same turn, if they declare those targets before rolling to hit.
P2 - The Blue Scribes must check, in the shooting phase, before using their second power whether they must repeat the first, or must use a second ranged power.
P3 - Before using the first power is by definition before using the second power.
C - The Blue Scribes will know what powers they are using in a given shooting phase, BEFORE targets are selected, because they can roll to see what second power they can/must use before nominating targets.

It also led me to the question of what happens if you're using powers that don't need to roll to hit (i.e. breath and aura).

It's pretty funny because I just noticed this issue tonight as well when looking through the codex for potential FAQs.


I think you are correct, that you have to declare which power you want to use, and then declare the 2nd power you want to use.

At that point you roll to see if you get your 2nd power choice or whether you'll fire the same power twice.

Then you declare targets and proceed on with the rest of the shooting steps for both powers.

As for your final question:

"It also led me to the question of what happens if you're using powers that don't need to roll to hit (i.e. breath and aura)."


Even without the 'We are Legion' disclaimer about needing to declare all targets "before rolling to hit" a firing unit has to resolve its shooting at once following the normal steps for shooting.

That means that one way or another both powers are going to have to be established before they cause any hits, any 'to wound' rolls are made, etc.

Just because you're using two powers that don't require any 'to hit' rolls wouldn't change this basic fact. In other words, the bit in parenthesis is just additional clarifying information (which makes sense because that's what information in parenthesis is supposed to be).

This seems really straightforward. What's the problem again?

Nurglitch wrote:This seems really straightforward. What's the problem again?

The Blue Scribes 'Watch This!' ability says:

"In their shooting phase, before using the second ranged attack, roll a d6. on a 4-6 proceed as normal. On a 1-3 they will use once again the same power that they just used."


The area I've highlighted in red most certainly gives the impression that you'd resolve the first power completely before moving on to fire the second power, and at that point you'd roll to see what power you use.

This doesn't quite vibe with the 'We are Legion' rule which says you must declare both your targets before rolling to hit and with the basic shooting rules which dictate that you resolve all of a unit's shooting at the same time following the same shooting steps.

In other words, you can't finish resolving the first power before moving on to resolve the 2nd power because then you'd be breaking the basic rules for shooting with a unit.

So Centurian was just putting forth the argument that you're allowed to determine which two powers you're going to be using (by making the 'Watch This!' roll before resolving the first power), which is something that probably hadn't occurred to some people yet.

Yakface:

Except, as Centurian99 rightly notes, the part of the text you've highlighted only suggests that you resolve the first power before resolving the second power if you ignore the basic rules for shooting with a unit.

Since the problem is resolved by putting the rules in question into their proper context, the basic rules for shooting with a unit, there seems to be no problem beyond reading the rules correctly.

It's just weird that Centurian99 seems to suggest that he's stumped when the solution he provides is both straightforward and correct.

I think I have to argue for a more restrictive version than what yakface is proposing.

The Blue Scribes have Master of Sorcery, so the issue isn't that they may or may not be able to make two ranged attacks--they'll always be able to declare two attacks. We are Legion says that they have to declare all targets before rolling to hit. What 'Watch this!' says is that the second power that you use may or may not be the power you declared. It, unfortunately, doesn't let you change the target for that second power if it ends up being invalid (boon of mutation targeted at a tank, for example) and you don't get your second shot, I think. I'm assuming minor targeting irregularities like using boon of mutation on a unit, or demonic gaze at a single model, would be easy enough to correct that those attacks wouldn't become wasted.

For instance, declare that you're going to use bolt of tzeentch at target A and breath of chaos on target b. If you do the bolt first, after working out that attack, then roll the die to see whether you're going to be a) using bolt of tzeentch on target b (1-3) or b) using breath of chaos on target b (4-6). Then continue as normal to use that attack against the declared target.

You could try your luck and try to get a bolt off at two different tanks, for example, but that's not legal to declare, so you'd have to declare some other attack against the second tank and hope to roll low on 'Watch this!'. But you would get the chance to try, and on the bright side, they do cost a lot less than all of their powers would cost as upgrades.

(Edited to move the sentence about minor irregularities around).

That actually how I assumed it would work, Solkan...

Except that on close reading of the rules, I don't see any reason why you have to declare which targets you are using before you find out what powers you're using. It seemed a bit counterintuitive, but I couldn't see any reason to disallow it.

Which actually makes the blue scribes usable.

"In their shooting phase, before using the second ranged attack, roll a d6. on a 4-6 proceed as normal. On a 1-3 they will use once again the same power that they just used."

How can you resolve the "Watch This!" rule, which stipulates in the results that you have to have used a power already, to figure out which power you're going to have for the 2nd attack? If you do it prior to selecting targets (thus prior to rolling to hit, thus prior to using the first power), if you roll a 1-3, the result is nothing. You have not used a power yet, thus either A) You're doing it wrong, or B) You get exactly that, nothing. No 2nd shot.

That's how I read it, at least.

Centurian99 wrote:We Are Legion:
During the shooting phase, the Daemon does not have to target all of its ranged weapons against the same target. Instead, it may fire any of its weapons at a different target (declare all targets before rolling to hit). It can then choose to assault any of the enemies...

Watch this:
In their shooting phase, before using the second ranged attack, roll a d6. on a 4-6 proceed as normal. On a 1-3 they will use once again the same power that they just used.

text in bold is my emphasis.

The question I have arises out of this: What does it mean to use the second ranged attack? This becomes important because it determines when you have to select the second target.

Since the rules in the codex overrule the main book, you can resolve this by ignoring the rules in the main book and doing exactly what they want you to do as listed in the codex.

1. Pick two targets for your two powers. You can even target the same unit with both powers, but you have to follow the rule that says you can't use the same power twice.
2. Declare what power you are using and resolve it. Since "Watch this" does not kick in until AFTER you use the first power.
3. Now roll for "Watch this" If you roll low, you use the same power you used on your first target. Otherwise, you pick a power to use on the second target. Note that the codex allows the blue scribes to use the same power twice in one phase and even against the same target. This is not a problem as a codex always over rides the main rule book with special cases and exceptions.

njfed wrote:
1. Pick two targets for your two powers. You can even target the same unit with both powers, but you have to follow the rule that says you can't use the same power twice.
2. Declare what power you are using and resolve it. Since "Watch this" does not kick in until AFTER you use the first power.
3. Now roll for "Watch this" If you roll low, you use the same power you used on your first target. Otherwise, you pick a power to use on the second target. Note that the codex allows the blue scribes to use the same power twice in one phase and even against the same target. This is not a problem as a codex always over rides the main rule book with special cases and exceptions.

I think what we have here is contradictory rules, because the Bluescribes have powers that either don't require selection of a target (aura of decay) or target a model instead of a unit (boon of mutation) or don't require a to-hit roll (breath of chaos). Which leads to a whole bunch of situations where the rules don't cover at all.

Also, we have a situation, where the "Watch this" rule seems to overrule some of the basic shooting rules (i.e. that all shooting from a single unit occurs simultaneously), while not being especially clear about what parts of the basic shooting rules are overruled. So the way I see it, there are really three options:

1) "Watch This" totally overrides the basic shooting rules, and creates a situation where the two attacks happen entirely sequentially - because a power isn't "used" until it is fully resolved - so the proper way of using the bluescribes is to choose the first power, nominate a target (if applicable), roll to hit (if applicable), resolve effects of first power, then make your "watch this roll," proceed.

2) "Watch This" partially overrides the basic shooting rules due to the interaction with "We are Legion". Basically this is Njfed's position, that you pick powers, then pick targets, then resolve the effects sequentially.

3) "Watch This" does what I originally postulated above. You roll for your second power after choosing the first, but before targets are nominated or effects resolves.

After thinking about it for a bit... options 1 and 2 are the most RAW, because the rules for Watch This don't specifically state which part of the normal shooting rules they're overriding. However, option 2 creates a whole slew of problems, because of the way that aura of decay doesn't target a specific unit, boon of mutation targets a specific model, and breath of chaos doesn't require a roll to hit. So either we'd need to figure out exactly what happens in a multitude of special situations and power combinations, or we go with option 1.

I think a poll is in order.

Centurian99 wrote:That actually how I assumed it would work, Solkan...

Except that on close reading of the rules, I don't see any reason why you have to declare which targets you are using before you find out what powers you're using. It seemed a bit counterintuitive, but I couldn't see any reason to disallow it.

Which actually makes the blue scribes usable.

My reasoning was due to 'We are Legion' requiring you to declare your targets before rolling to hit. I don't think it's material whether or not you're doing any appropriate to-hit rolls simultaneously, or resolving the effects of the powers in sequence in the interest of avoiding confusion. If I were doing them simultaneously, I'd declare powers and targets, roll for 'Watch this!', then nominate dice and roll as needed. If either or both powers ended up being the Aura of Decay or Breath of Chaos, skip unnecessary die rolls as appropriate. Hmm. That's probably the interpretation least disruptive to the normal turn flow that I figure out.

As far as whether that makes the scribes unusable, if they actually had to pay for all of those gifts they'd be double their point cost. A little bit of unpredictability doesn't seem too bad.

This is definitely a power that could use a few extra sentences to iron things out, though.
(Edited twice because of lousy explanations in the morning.)

Heh, to add to this then, can the blue scribes pavane someone into a roughly template shaped formation and follow it up with breath since the implication is that their shooting is NOT simultaneous?

Centurian99 wrote:"Watch This" partially overrides the basic shooting rules due to the interaction with "We are Legion". Basically this is Njfed's position, that you pick powers, then pick targets, then resolve the effects sequentially.

First, my position is you pick two target as the rule says. You don't actually have to pick a power for the second unit until after your "Watch this" roll...per the rules in the codex.

Second, I agree that some funny stuff can happen by working things out this way. Like you normally can't use pavane to pull a unit into range and then hit them with another power...this would let you do that. In fact, since you don't have to actually say what the second power is until after the "watch this" roll, you can wait to see what affect the first power has. A bit screwy, but that is the way the rule is written in the codex.

njfed wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:"Watch This" partially overrides the basic shooting rules due to the interaction with "We are Legion". Basically this is Njfed's position, that you pick powers, then pick targets, then resolve the effects sequentially.

First, my position is you pick two target as the rule says. You don't actually have to pick a power for the second unit until after your "Watch this" roll...per the rules in the codex.

Second, I agree that some funny stuff can happen by working things out this way. Like you normally can't use pavane to pull a unit into range and then hit them with another power...this would let you do that. In fact, since you don't have to actually say what the second power is until after the "watch this" roll, you can wait to see what affect the first power has. A bit screwy, but that is the way the rule is written in the codex.

The problem is that there are powers that select a unit as a target, a model as a target, and don't select targets at all...

Doesn't it depend on the definition of the word 'use' in the Watch this rule? Wouldn't use include declaring target of said power?

winterman wrote:Doesn't it depend on the definition of the word 'use' in the Watch this rule? Wouldn't use include declaring target of said power?

Exactly. Of course, does use mean:

A) Declaring you're going to use the power?
B) Selecting a target for that power if applicable?
C) Resolving the effect of the power?
D) All of the above?
E) Something else?

Basically, as far as I can tell, "Watch This" has to supercede both "We Are Legion" and the basic shooting rules. But since watch this says "before using the second power" and "the same power that they just used" I think we have to conclude that "Watch This" significantly overrides the basic shooting rules by making the shooting from a single unit (e.g. the Blue Scribes) sequential as opposed to simultaneous.

if I could be so bold as to look at this from an awfully fluffy RAI perspective, the resulting round of shooting would turn out in one of the two following ways.

Outcome 1, 'Watch This' roll results in 2 seperate powers being cast.

both Xirat'p and P'tarix independently inflict mutagenic devastation upon the battlefield, taunting eachother and boasting of their eldritch prowess.

Outcome 2, 'Watch This' results in a copied spell cast.

One blue horror punches the other on the arm, saying 'hey you big blue bastard, check this out!' *hoses the incoming assault marines with Breath of Chaos, turning them into a field of Ultramarine blue daisies. The second horror guffaws mockingly, stating he can do better. The second horror also casts Breath of Chaos, blasting twice as many of those same marines as his friend (or another nearby applicable squad, there's room for argument for both). Those Marines scream, choke and collapse as their air-tight power armor quickly fills up with scalding tomato bisque. That'll show him how that spell SHOULD be cast.



inappropriately inserted fluff aside, it makes sense from the hated 'common-sense' side of things. I could see arguments for the 2nd cast to be on that horror's original target choice, but again that doesn't make sense when you consider the nature of the unit. Hard to show off by firing a spell uselessly into the air in the direction of the out of range squad, no? Even if the target is in range, it still Seems odd for the horror to try to show off his more impressive bolt of tzeentch to the first horror by blowing a single ork out of the water instead of blowing up the big scary deff dread 2" away that the original bolt failed to destroy.


problem is, even THIS raises another problematic question. what happens if the original bolt DID blow up that deff dread? would your 'watch this' roll result in the 2nd horror screaming 'YEE-HAW!' and firing his bolt into the sky?

This thread is beautifully timed, as I'll be finishing my scratch-built scribes for next weekend. and yes, I concur with the 'omg this needs an FAQ already.' I don't suppose anyone's called GW support on this one? understandably unreliable information and all that, but it's still worth a try.


PS aura of decay seems simple because you don't target any squads with it, and boon you can probably select an individual model out of whichever squad you have to/get to fire the spell at.

The Defenestrator wrote: I don't suppose anyone's called GW support on this one? understandably unreliable information and all that, but it's still worth a try.

Unreliable is exactly why we don't call them. It's not even worth the time (and possibly charges) of the Long Distance phone call, seeing as how YMDC usually comes up with a more thought-out, precise, and coherent answer (if one can be determined from the information at hand). If G.W. wants to chime in un-officially, let em register and post; Until then calling them isn't nearly as good as asking here.

Thread necromancy... gotta love it.

I'lll start a poll.