Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There. I've said it. Despite my efforts, despite knowing the rules fairly well for a noob, I lost the last ten games of 4th Ed. I played. My opponents aren't veterans - we all learned at the same time - and one of my friends keeps forgetting his orks have Furious charge and gimping himself! Yet, for all this, I still can't seem to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

This is my army list.

1000 points of Ultramarines:
1 Master w/Jump Pack, Power Weapon, Iron Halo, Terminator Honors
8 Assault Marines (2xPlasma Pistol, V.Sgt w/Power Fist)
1 Landspeeder Tornado
1 Landspeeder Tornado
1 Dreadnaught (Assault Cannon/Claw)
1 Dreadnaught (Lascannon/Missile Launcher)
6 Tactical Marines (Las/Plas)
6 Tactical Marines (Las/Plas)

We usually run games at 1,000 points, yet my friend who games with Necrons and I have been known to hop up to 1500-1850. In those games, we almost always draw. Maybe we just need to play at a different points value?

Lately, I've lost to Orks (though I'm not overly surprised there - our games at 1000 points have been close!) Chaos Space Marines (Aspiring Champion Raptors w/Lightning Claws and Mark of Slaanesh? That's just sick! I lose four guys before I can blink!) and Necrons (Veil of Darkness is very good, and the Monolith is a slab of black cheese ><.

So, what can I do? Expand my list to 10 man Tac Squads? Come new codex time, that'll certainly be happening... but what else? There's got to be something missing...

You have 21 marines and 4 easily crippled/destroyed vehicles.

You are not mech, foot, or assault--you are trying to be all of them.

This is your problem, a total lack of list focus.

You should change it up.

Hmm... okay, howzabout something like this?

1 Master w/Jump Pack, Power Weapon, Terminator Honors, Iron Halo
8 Assault Marines (2xPlasma Pistol, V.Sgt w/Power Fist)
1 Landspeeder Tornado
1 Landspeeder Tornado
10 Tactical Marines (7xBolter, 1xPlasma Gun, 1xPlasma Cannon, Sgt)
10 Tactical Marines (7xBolter, 1xFlamer, 1xHeavy Bolter, V.Sgt w/Power Fist)
2 Rhinos (extra armor, 1xSmoke)

Everything has mobility. 10 thick squads with versatile weapons combos help me take-and-hold objectives, plus ensuring that I can bring something threatening to the board for Dawn of War scenarios.

Play something other than marines.

...easier to win.

Haha, yeah, that's what I've been hearing lately!

I'm looking forward to September.

What have you been doing, tactically speaking?

How many more tact squads you have? You have any attack bikes?

I think you're going to have to be more specific. Neither of those lists is bad enough to go 0-10

Missions? Board size? Opponent lists? Tactics?

Get ready for an exhaustive post!

I have 1 attack bike and 5 Bikers. I never figured out how to use them properly, so they're awaiting stripping and resale unless someone shows me a brilliant tactic.

I have the option of making up to 20 more Space Marines from my current bitz collection. I plan to make at least 10 more to expand the force to 2000 points, but I'm not sure how they'll be equipped. The other 10 are Black Templars that need to be repainted and converted to fit in with the Ultras.

Board Size: 4x4 v. Orks, 6x4 vs. Chaos, Necrons.

Missions: Various. One was Assassinate, which I failed because killing a teleporting Necron Lord surrounded by a mob of immortals in 6 turns is really really hard. The others have run the gamut from Cleanse to Take-and-Hold, so I really don't think Mission is the reason... though I do well at the one requiring me to hold the center of the map at the end of turn 6. Those have all been close.

Opponents...
NECRONS
Necron Lord w/Veil of Darkness
10 Immortals
12+ Necron Warriors x2
3 Destroyers x3
Monolith

He will sometimes splash in Flayed Ones or Heavy Destroyers, but I've never seen him without the 'lith or the teleporting Lord. His usual tactic is to teleport behind my advance with the Lord, rapid fire something to death, and then shoot me until I'm forced to either (1) assault him, from which his lord teleports safely away, or (2) focus fire into his unit. Either way, he effectively controls my actions for at least 2 Turns.

ORKS
1 Warboss w/Power Klaw, Kombi-Missile Launcher, Mega Armor
1 Warboss w/Big Choppa, Twin-linked Big Shoota, 4+ armor
11 ‘Ard Boyz + Nob w/Power Klaw
17 Boyz w/Big Shoota
17 Boyz w/Big Shoota
17 Boyz w/Big Shoota
17 Boyz w/Big Shoota
1 Deff Dread w/Missile Launcher, Close-Combat Claw
1 Deff Dread w/Big Shoota, Close-Combat Claw
2 Killa Kans, Missile Launcher + Big Shoota

We usually play on a 4x4 table. I think that's a big factor. The other factor is I have no clue what to shoot first. Usually it's whatever's charging right at me, to prevent assault.

CHAOS
Fabius Bile
10 CSM w/Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/power weapon
8 Khorne Berserkers, Champ w/power weapon, in Rhino
5 Possessed
1 Predator Annihilator
8 Raptors w/Aspiring Champ with Lightning Claws

No idea what's going on with this army. His tactics are generally to rush into assault and beat me to a bloody pulp. He's generally good at it. The Aspiring Champion with Lightning Claws is his MVP, as nothing in my list can come close to killing him and he's good about staying away from my ICs.

Get ready for an exhaustive post!

I have 1 attack bike and 5 Bikers. I never figured out how to use them properly, so they're awaiting stripping and resale unless someone shows me a brilliant tactic.

I have the option of making up to 20 more Space Marines from my current bitz collection. I plan to make at least 10 more to expand the force to 2000 points, but I'm not sure how they'll be equipped. The other 10 are Black Templars that need to be repainted and converted to fit in with the Ultras.

Board Size: 4x4 v. Orks, 6x4 vs. Chaos, Necrons.

Missions: Various. One was Assassinate, which I failed because killing a teleporting Necron Lord surrounded by a mob of immortals in 6 turns is really really hard. The others have run the gamut from Cleanse to Take-and-Hold, so I really don't think Mission is the reason... though I do well at the one requiring me to hold the center of the map at the end of turn 6. Those have all been close.

Opponents...
NECRONS
Necron Lord w/Veil of Darkness
10 Immortals
12+ Necron Warriors x2
3 Destroyers x3
2 Tomb Spyders (imo, these things are amazingly good without being too cheesy)
Monolith

He will sometimes splash in Flayed Ones or Heavy Destroyers, but I've never seen him without the 'lith or the teleporting Lord. His usual tactic is to teleport behind my advance with the Lord, rapid fire something to death, and then shoot me until I'm forced to either (1) assault him, from which his lord teleports safely away, or (2) focus fire into his unit. Either way, he effectively controls my actions for at least 2 Turns.

ORKS
1 Warboss w/Power Klaw, Kombi-Missile Launcher, Mega Armor
1 Warboss w/Big Choppa, Twin-linked Big Shoota, 4+ armor
11 ‘Ard Boyz + Nob w/Power Klaw
17 Boyz w/Big Shoota
17 Boyz w/Big Shoota
17 Boyz w/Big Shoota
17 Boyz w/Big Shoota
1 Deff Dread w/Missile Launcher, Close-Combat Claw
1 Deff Dread w/Big Shoota, Close-Combat Claw
2 Killa Kans, Missile Launcher + Big Shoota

We usually play on a 4x4 table. I think that's a big factor. The other factor is I have no clue what to shoot first. Usually it's whatever's charging right at me, to prevent assault.

CHAOS
Fabius Bile
10 CSM w/Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/power weapon
8 Khorne Berserkers, Champ w/power weapon, in Rhino
5 Possessed
1 Predator Annihilator
8 Raptors w/Aspiring Champ with Lightning Claws

No idea what's going on with this army. His tactics are generally to rush into assault and beat me to a bloody pulp. He's generally good at it. The Aspiring Champion with Lightning Claws is his MVP, as nothing in my list can come close to killing him and he's good about staying away from my ICs.

Just a quick question...why are you guys stuck in 4th?

LONG post.....

Ok, I like your second list better - it seems that you're going for a mobile, assault based army. In this case, you really need to maximise your assault blokes. You also have no tank-killy weapons at the moment, though you have a selection of anti-infantry weapons in the Landspeeders and Tac Squads.

Bikes can be used for this. Make up the bikes with a multimelta and maybe a meltagun in the squad, or equip them with melta bombs. Then give the SGT terminator honours and a teleport homer. If you're gonna go for meltabombs, you could always go full out and give the SGT a powerfist for close up tank killing.

Spend the first few turns of the game getting your tac. marines (in a rhino) into position to hold an outlying objective, and kill the nearest tanks with your bikes. Use another squad of tac marines to hold any objective in your deployment zone, and give them something long ranged and killy to get rid of more enemy tanks with - maybe a lascannon or missile launcher.

Remember, your assaults are never going to happen in the first few turns, so use them to thin out any big, scary threats.

Then, around turn 3 get your bikes into a good position and deep strike your assault marines into cover, maybe on a flank of the enemy army, using the bike SGT's teleport homer to ensure they don't scatter. Ideally you don't want them to arrive from reserves in turn 2. Anyway, the important thing is to DS them into cover, and our of assault range so they don't get shot up the turn after they arrive. Then, on YOUR next turn, you have an 18" charge range.

By this point your bikes will be half strong and raggedy ANYWAY, so just run them around as a mobile teleport base, or attacking enemy tanks with their last remaining melta weapons. If they can continue to kill tanks, they'll draw fire away from other units. Remeber, bikes are not MUCH tougher than normal marines, so keep them in cover when you can. Of course, they're better in bigger games, as they do cost quite a lot of points...

You need to consider

* Maximum amount of troops in your assault squad. The extra bodies really come in handy...

* Another cheap, scoring unit - did you get any scouts with those Black Templars of yours? They can be used to hold objectives that are in the middle of nowhere (infiltrate) or ones that are really safe in your deployment zone (assuming your opponent has no DS squads)

* Another assaulting unit, to co-ordinate with your assault marines. How are your Black Templars equipped?? If they have CC weapons, make them another, non-Jump Pack assault squad, and put them in the other Rhino. Or maybe a veteran squad. Or get some Jump Pack parts off ebay or something and make another Jump Pack squad. Or use them as a command squad for something like.....

* A chaplain. If you're going for an assaulting army, these guys are fantastic. If you don't want to buy one, convert one. Paint a model black, make a cool crozius, and put ALL the purity seals you have on it! At the moment, it's probably best to swap out your Master for a Jump Pack Chaplain, even? Once the new rules get released, we'll see if that's still the case.

* Some sort of really shooty unit. It's always good to have SOMETHING that can just sit on your high point all game and shoot at enemy threats. Consider making some of those extra marines into a devastator squad (missile launchers are the easiest wepoans to get hold of, and they're reasonable good at everything). If you do, stick to one or two weapons - no devastator squads with hvy bolters and lascannons, for example!! OR convert the remaining rhino into something like a Predator, or Vindicator.

The absolute main thing is to remember how each of your units are supposed to function, and use them in the correct way. Keep your army BACK - you've got five turns to land some troops on those objectives, and at the moment they're all in vehicles, so get a couple of good rounds of shooting in before his CC squads reach you. Use the bikes and assault squads together, all on the same turn, and hide them up until that moment, so the assaults all happen at once. Deploy your devastators somewhere with a good line of sight and then NEVER move them, for any reason! etc etc..

Hope that's helpful

Ian

Wow, IanWilliamGalloway, thank you. Holy crap, that's a lot of good advice. I'll try to post a more in-depth response here in a bit.

Good question Lormax. We're working on transitioning to 5th, but July's been busy. I'm not in any official gaming club, so my friends and I make transitions when we all have time to buy the new rulebooks and read them.

I've got my first game of 5th coming up on Thursday against my friend's 'crons, so hopefully I'll be able to tell you all how it goes.

That'll be a good read. May want to get together with your friends and share the costs on some starter boxes when they come out in September. Tons of figures, templates, and the rulebook as well! Considering the box set is almost the same price as the hardcover book, may as well pick that up even if you won't use the mini's. I'm sure you'll be able to sell em on ebay or trade them to others for stuff you want.

IanWilliamGalloway wrote:LONG post.....

Then, around turn 3 get your bikes into a good position and deep strike your assault marines into cover, maybe on a flank of the enemy army, using the bike SGT's teleport homer to ensure they don't scatter. Ideally you don't want them to arrive from reserves in turn 2. Anyway, the important thing is to DS them into cover, and our of assault range so they don't get shot up the turn after they arrive. Then, on YOUR next turn, you have an 18" charge range.

Assault Marines are a great addition to any force and really there's no reason not to take 2-3 squads of them with a Powerfist and/or Meltabombs for hard-hitting, close combat death. If you're playing 5th ed, though, be careful that you are teleporting BEHIND cover, not into cover. In 5th edition your units will need to take a Dangerous Terrain test when teleporting in, and when jumping out. You'll lose 2-3 marines before they even do anything if you're jumping in and out of cover.

One thing you need to do is decide what you tac squads are going to be doing. If you want them to hang back and shoot, then give them a heavy weapon and skip the special weapon and the rhino. If you want them zooming up in a rhino, then skip the heavy weapon (since you are all ways going to be moving it and not shooting) and just stick with the special weapon. If you are planning on splitting them up into combat squads (something I consider a dubious tactice at the moment) then you can get both weapons, keep the heavy in the back and sent the special forward. In either case, make sure the roles of the weapons you give the squad match. If you take a las cannon for your heavy, don't also take a flamer for your special. If you take a melta gun for your special, don't take a heavy bolter for your heavy. Mixing up the squad's purpose like that really dilutes your firepower when you are forced to shoot the entire squad at a single target.

On the other hand, a dual purpose squad is rarely out of position to do something useful. That's why a Missile Launcher and a Flamethrower are so useful, for example, they can engage any target so they won't be left vulnerable to infantry or vehicles.

Uhhh, is it possible you're losing because you're playing 1000 points against not 1000 points? The Necrons you describe are worth at least 1500 points.

Anyway...

I'd suggest you dump the vehicles for a while, and learn to play the Marines themselves. Infantry Marines do best as a shooty list, with a supporting assault unit. You've got that, in your Assault Squad.

The Assault Squad is a good unit. But it's best with a cheap Jump Pack Chaplain. Cheap model, free Power Weapon, and he gives the squad Litanies of Hate. Give him Meltabombs (I think it's legal, I forget).

The Las/Plas squads are also very good units. They'll probably go away with the new SM Codex, but for now, they're a great all around unit. Try going with 3x.

Devestators are a bit pricey, but they're still a strong unit. Take them with Missile Launchers or Heavy Bolters. For your list, I think Heavy Bolters would be a better option, to help with Orks. 2:1 ratio of models to Heavy Weapons. 8 is good for H Bolters.

That's probably most of your points, room enough for one more model.

The Tornados are good, but nerfed a bit in 5e. The Dreads aren't too bad, the guy with the CCW might do well against the lists you describe, as they feature a lot of units that can't hurt it in CC. Get it stuck into Necron Warriors, or those Ork Boyz (even the Ard Boyz), and it will win the fight.

I lost a few games like that.

1000 points of necrons was a Monolith, a setup Lord with orb and shroud, Deceiver, two groups of warriors.


shrug.

kirsanth wrote:I lost a few games like that.

1000 points of necrons was a Monolith, a setup Lord with orb and shroud, Deceiver, two groups of warriors.


shrug.

Thats 1095 pts with 2 squads of 10

I played my first game of 5th Edition today.

All in all, it actually went really well. I lost by 2 kill points in Annihilation, BUT had my necron opponent 4 models away from phase out. Oddly, the MVPs of the game were my Rhinos. I managed with a single Rhino to tank shock 200 points of destroyers and a group of Immortals off the board. Ha!

Still, not as close as I would have liked. It was VERY apparent today that my list is all over the place and lacks focus.

Once the new Codex comes out, I'm thinking of this as a revised list:


HQ
Tigurus with 5-man Command Squad - Rhino
Chaplain with Thunder Hammer + Terminator Honors + Jump Pack (try this guy, you'll LOVE 'im)

FAST ATTACK
8-man Assault Squad: 2 Plasma Pistols, 1 Power Fist

TROOPS
10-man Tactical Squad: 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Plasma Cannon
10-man Tactical Squad: 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Plasma Cannon
10-man Tactical Squad: 1 Flamer, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Power Fist - Rhino
10-man Tactical Squad: 1 Flamer, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Power Fist - Rhino

HEAVY SUPPORT
2 Vindicators (extra armor)
1 Predator Annihilator (Heavy Bolters, extra armor)

12 kill points.
54 marines.
8 vehicles.

Not a good 5E marine list.

You'll see.

You'll see and an evil grin? Where's my mistake?

*confused*

Tigurius, according to the rumors, = whoa baby. Unless he costs far more than he's worth, I can't see not fielding him.

Vindicators = pie plates = dead 'crons. Why I've been putting off getting a pair of these, I have no clue.

Bumping with a formal request for help against necrons.

Tactics?
Vindicators?
Templates?
LRs?
LRCs?

How do I kill them???

also,

NEW 1000 point LIST
Chaplain Deo (Master of Sanctity)
w/Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Terminator Honors – 134

Assault Squad – 216
8 Space Marines, 2x Plasma Pistol
V. Sgt w/Power Fist

Tactical Squad Auron - 160
10 Space Marines w/Plasma Gun
Rhino – 50

Tactical Squad Stygies - 160
10 Space Marines w/Plasma Gun
Rhino – 50

Devastator Squad Cadmus - 150
6 Space Marines, 3x Missile Launcher

Land Speeder Tornado - 80

Basic tactics against Necrons from a former Necron guy:

Get into close combat with as many units as you can. They can only Veil and Monolith so many, and if they Veil, that usually takes the Rez Orb away from some units.

Focus fire and kill an entire squad if you can. Even if they get up and join a nearby unit, they are now just one large unit instead of two. Good for scoring but also good for defense... it means they can target one less thing with shooting.

If they are using a Monolith to reroll WBB, spread the love around and hit every unit for a few wounds. That will minimize the reroll effect.

Immortals and Destroyers can put out a ton of shots. They have to die first.

Gauss isn't the best thing out there for killing vehicles, but every unit can do it. What it does mean is that a grunt Necron will look at a Land Raider the same way as it does a Land Speeder... so it can kill 250 points as easy as 50 points... I always loved seeing Land Raiders because it was such an obvious target for the Warriors.

I never had luck with the Monolith. You should either throw everything you have at it until it drops, or ignore it completely. In 1000 point games, just ignore it. If he sends a template at you, he isn't teleporting that turn.

Arkion wrote:You'll see and an evil grin? Where's my mistake?

*confused*

Tigurius, according to the rumors, = whoa baby. Unless he costs far more than he's worth, I can't see not fielding him.

Vindicators = pie plates = dead 'crons. Why I've been putting off getting a pair of these, I have no clue.

Tiggie's best feature in 5th would be re-roll to reserve.Where is your reserve units?

Thanks Wildstorm. I've had some of the rules clarified for me, and my friend has been giving himself some advantages (innocently, I presume). I doubt next time his army will be so impossible to defeat.

I agree with you that the monolith is a special piece of work. I have wasted many a shooting phase hammering away at that piece of cheese.

Tokugawa, Tigurus will require an army list restructuring, to be sure. I plan to use him with a 10-strong terminator unit that is currently in the works.

Make em assault termies, denying a necrons regen and being able to shrug off monlith blast will scare the crap out of any necron enemy, causing them to waste precious shots trying to kill them. MAKE YOUR TERMIES IMPOSSIBLE TO IGNORE

I saw your list of your opponents...

The orks want melee. Sounds the the CSM wants melee. The Necron loves his monolith.

Suggestion from an old firepower player. Love vehicles and mount them all up or don't play any of them.

At 1000 points with a lord, a monolith and destroyers, his phase out is too easy to get.

The orks... these are tough but if you flame/charge them they are dead meat.

The chaos marines... well you are loyal and he is not so he should lose. Right?


5th edition you need troop choices to hold objectives and probably need 10-man tacticals (or 5s) like DA and BA with the new codex.


HQ - Chaplain on Bike ...

10 - man Tactical Flamer, Heavy Bolter (assume Vet Sgt is auto in new codex)
10 - man Tactical As Above
10 - man Tactical As Above

6 Bikes and Attack Bike. 2x Flamers & Heavy Bolter.

10 - man Devastator 4 Missile Launchers.

I know this is probably over 1000 pts but play around with it... maybe lose 5 and the heavy bolter out of the 3rd tac squad.

the Missile Launchers should eliminate the Predator of the CSM or the Destroyers of the Necrons. Fire frags at the orc hoard.

The tacticals are flexible they can take out hoards at range or up close.

The Chaplain and his bike squad are your counterattack force and can chew through anything after the softening effects of twin-linked bolters and 2 flamer templates.

If I am right, you will get battle squads so you can split your tacs (and devs) into 5-man squads. Then it is 5 with the Hvy bolter and 5 with the sergeant and the flamer. Even necrons won't appreciate flamer templates and heavy bolters. Against the other two you should have no problem reducing their assaulting units to remnants by the time the get across the board to you.

If you like vehicles, keep the same load-out on the tacticals but give each a razorback with TL bolters. Switch out the devastator squad if you prefer and put your vindicator out there. Now you are playing more aggressive. The razorbacks form a TLOS wall to protect your Chaplain bike squad. 6" closer every turn, then drop them out drop the templates and the double-shot bolters and charge in with the chaplain. The vindicator drops its pie plate and see what happens. Oh in this case switch out the missile launchers and put them in the tac squads.

In any case ignore the monolith... too hard to kill and not worth it... get rid of the the warriors and go for the phase out ASAP. (easier said than done.)

This list should be fine against orks and CSM and have a chance against the necron since he is making his phase-out so doable by playing the monolith at 1000.

Remember 2/3s of the 5th ed games are to take objectives and 1/3 is kill points. If it is to take objectives, you need to take at least one objective with a tactical squad and deny all others to your opponent. I would lean to combat squads in objective games and probably staying with full squads in a kill point game.

DAAddict, I think it's awesome that the list you posted is almost exactly the list I'm currently using.

...if you sub the Bikers for Assault Marines and give the Chaplain a jump pack.

I'm undecided whether I prefer AMs or Bikers at this point. Bikers are awfully fragile.

However, your point about vehicles is purely legit. I no longer field vehicles in lists under 1000 points. The last game I played with SM was an incredibly close draw.

Lots of the advice I've gotten from y'all has helped. Thanks!

I also started a small Tau army (~1000 points) which helped me understand some elements of the game that Space Marines can't teach.

Anyway, feeling a lot better about the game. I'll probably cap the Ultras at 2000 points, keep the Tau force small and friendly, and from there, who knows?