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When does one pick the weapon a unit of Obliterators will fire when the changeling (shoot your own models) ability is used on it?

I do not own a Chaos Demons codex. My apologizes if it's spelled out in black and white, but my opponent playing Chaos Demons didn't know and didn't have his dex on him (I know... I know... I should play people that are more prepared).

I would say they pick the weapon first because they would declare what they were shooting, then check range. Not 100% on that, but I think that is the "new" order of things.

The Obliterators declare their intent to shoot. At this point all the Chaos player has declared is that they're going to shoot. He hasn't picked weapons, targets, or measured ranges yet.

The Changeling targets them.

The Obliterators decide to try to see through the Glamour, but fail their leadership test.

The Changeling's player may shoot any of the weapons the Oblit squad can morph at any other target within the Changeling's line of sight, as per his special rules. The rule is that you may fire with the unit - any modes of firing the unit has is still applicable.

A comparison might be if the Changeling targets a Leman Russ, which it can do. Assuming the LR fails it's LD10 roll, the Changeling can then choose to fire either the battlecannon or the heavy bolters, but not both as per the usual firing restrictions. It would be silly to say that you're stuck choosing one mode of fire beforehand.

The rule in the daemon codex says to pick any enemy unit that the changeling can see and is about to fire. This implies that the enemy unit has decided what to fire and at whom. You can't be about to fire if you don't know what you are shooting with.

So I would say the enemy unit would use the same weapon that they were planning to use in the first place. It does say that the enemy unit can't hold back, so does this mean that if a predator wanted to shoot its heavy bolters and the changeling picked a target that the heavy bolters could not hurt, like a land raider, would it switch to fire its lascannon?

njfed wrote:The rule in the daemon codex says to pick any enemy unit that the changeling can see and is about to fire. This implies that the enemy unit has decided what to fire and at whom.

No it doesn't. If you follow the steps for shooting the most likely place the Changeling's power would interrupt would be when the player picks the unit he is going to shoot with but before he completes any of the steps for shooting, including declaring which models in the unit are going to shoot and what weapons they are going to use.


Either way, its a good candidate for The Chaos Daemons FAQ.

So... inconclusive?

But I tend to lean toward Yakface's argument. I think we'll play it that way if it ever comes up again.

Thanks for the insight all.

yakface wrote:No it doesn't. If you follow the steps for shooting the most likely place the Changeling's power would interrupt would be when the player picks the unit he is going to shoot with but before he completes any of the steps for shooting, including declaring which models in the unit are going to shoot and what weapons they are going to use.


Either way, its a good candidate for The Chaos Daemons FAQ.

I agree 100% the exact timing of the interruption is wide open to debate and needs to be FAQed.

Playing daemon's advocate, I have no intention of using the redirect power if the unit shooting at my squad is found to be out of range. Since you check range after you declare what is going to fire, but before you roll to hit, I would say the argument could be made that it should happen after checking the range.

On the other hand, it would seem to me that the changeling would see a squad raise their weapons to fire and have a split second to decide if he wants to try to redirect the fire. He certainly has no idea if the unit is in range. Maybe he should have to declare his intention after the enemy has said what is going to fire, but before the range is checked.

Yup, that last option seems like a good spot for it. Hey! GW, we're waiting!

Going by the interpretation of the Changeling rule in the dex, and specifically referring to the clause that says 'No holding back!', I would even say that the unit which failed its leadership has to fire the weapons optimally suited for eliminating the targeted ally unit.

For example, let's say the Oblits were going to shoot at your Soulgrinder. It's obvious they'd probably use lascannons for the purpose. Changeling glamour goes off. The Khornate Berzerkers next to the Oblits suddenly appear as a horde of Boyz. The Oblits aren't going to try using lascannons to thin out a horde, they're going to dump plasma cannon/heavy bolter/heavy flamer shots into them. These weapons are optimized for taking out their target, else they'd be 'holding back'.

Definitely FAQ worthy.

FAQ worthy, but I will go with the daemon player being able to "optimize" these shots.