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So I recently encountered two problems with wording and rule set that occur with Tyranids.

First is In close combat:

I have a brood of 20 Hormagaunts fighting 10 Space Marines. Say 10 Gaunts die and 4 Space Marines die. The Gaunts are in Synapse range. Question is does synapse force the Gaunts to take an additional 6 saves since they lost combat by 6? They aren't considered Fearless but are "assumed to pass all leadership type tests".

Secondly Without Number:

This is really a two part question. A cheap gaunt brood of 8 Spinegaunts that have Without Number can be purchased to hopefully keep an objective almost indefinitely however when said brood is no longer under Synapse there are two problems. One to move on the board does it need to take a leadership test? The Rule doesn't seem to define when the Gaunts come back on the table. Secondly If they don't and they move on over an objective can they claim said objective as long as they don't move or attempt to do anything or do they need to take a LD test to act as a troops choice that can claim objectives?

I've already come to my own conclusions but I would really like to see what other people have to say about these two instances and if they can shed any light on the opposing views.

1st. Yes, they take 6 saves. In fact, IIRC, the rules for No Retreat specifically name units "that are assumed to always pass morale checks."

2nd. The question is if they began the turn within 12" of synapse. Given that they came on the board this turn from reserves, they technically didn't start the turn within 12" of synapse. I think this is silly and house rule that there's a giant hive mind just off the Tyranid player's table edge, so that coming in from Reserves you're fine. But some RAW players will disagree.

The most instinctive interpretation would be that they come on the table, but if they are not within synapse range they make a LD test or choose to Lurk. Keep in mind that if they're Lurking they can't claim an objective, per the specific rules in the Tyranid codex.

1)

Pg. 44 BRB No Retreat! It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Moral checks for losing an assault, or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule)...

These units do not take Moral checks and will never fall back. Instead, these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side lost the combat by (allocated as normal).

2) I'm under the assumption that WoN operates using Reserves rules, however, I don't have the Tyranid codex in front of me, therefor, I'd look to the section covering reserves.

Pg.94 BRBArriving from reserve paragraph 2: If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from Reserve.

"Without Number... Any brood Without Number that is removed form play may be brought back into play at the beginning of the next Tyranid turn. It moves onto the board from the Tyranid player's board edge and has exactly the same profile and armaments as its predecessor."

I don't see anything about reserves.

Actually after reading further...

Pg.40 Tyranid Codex - Without Number... Any brood Without Number that is removed form play may be brought back into play at the beginning of the next Tyranid turn. It moves onto the board from the Tyranid player's board edge and has exactly the same profile and armaments as its predecessor. Victory Points are scored as usual for the brood and its replacements as if they were entirely separate broods.

So the brood coming on essentially is a NEW replacement brood and the Rule ConditionOfMan quoted in the BRB PG.94 as well as the fact that in the Outflank section it references the same paragraph as to how they move on the board, although obviously on another board edge, then it seems it's meant to be that restrictions such as Instinctive Behavior are ignored for the turn that they move onto the board so that they can do so thus only on the turn after would the rule have an effect them.

WON and IB is a real mixed blessing. Yes, they do ignore IB on the turn they move back onto the board. If they start the next turn out of synapse range and you want to move them, you have to roll. Here is the funny part, if fail the roll and there is a synapse creature on the board, the brood will make a fall back move toward the synapse creature!

So the brood will move 2D6 instead of 6" and ignore difficult terrain, and it can still run as long as it continues to move toward a synapse creature. You can move further by failing the morale test, especially if you are moving through difficult terrain. Hopefully, your brood will be in synapse range in time to change direction and claim an objective before the end of the game.

Or you are careful to leave a synapse creature in such a position that your gaunts move towards an objective when behaving instinctively ...

Well here's the scenario. Last turn of the game. Tyranid player has second turn. The Squad of Gaunts has been wiped off the table thus will come back next turn. There is NO synapse on the table. The objective on the Tyranid side is within 9" (thus even with a 6" move they could technically get in range) and during his turn the Gaunts WoN would come back and claim this objective.

Now I know this is HARDCORE cheeze and cheap as you can be but it's something that can change the outcome of the game. If they can come on the board with no restrictions and ignore IB for that turn then they can win the game or at least tie the game possibly at the last moment with no possible way for the other player to reclaim that objective.

Double Post:( Sry

WoN units that are moving on from the table edge do not need IB rolls.

You roll Instinctual Behavior BEFORE you move the unit. They MOVE onto the table as part of the WoN rules. Outside of Reserves (and perhaps the random turn length roll), NO roll affects a unit that is not on the table. Which means they are scoring the turn the appear, every time. WoN means 10", threshold from their edge, for 2nd turn Tyranids to ALWAYS have a scoring unit on an objective.

"HARDCORE cheeze" is RAW. I always aim for going second as I play Tyranids.


shrug

Also, the "intentional fall-back towards an objective" if the synapse creature is in that direct line does not always work - the unit still counts as falling back if it doesn't get to synapse range, and if the game ends it's removed along with all other falling back units.

I'm really only concerned with the scenario of a Gaunt brood coming back on during the last turn and if it lets you capture an objective on your side.

there is really nothing wrong with doing that (WoN gaunts on last turn) If you payed for the upgrade you can use it to it's full extent. I've already won a game in the exact manner described above.
My opponents have no problems with this- if they see the rules in the rulebook. Thats the key- make sure they know about it before it happens, and there is no issue.

What Iboshi2 said is correct. As long as the objective is just the smallest bit closer than 9" from the table edge, you would be able to claim it with your 6" move on the last turn.

And don't feel bad about this being cheese. The next time you do it say, "This victory is for you NJFED, for all the times you lost to a space marine land speeder or biker that has been hiding in a corner of the board moving 24" across the board on the last move to claim an objective."

Ivellos wrote:Well here's the scenario. Last turn of the game. Tyranid player has second turn. The Squad of Gaunts has been wiped off the table thus will come back next turn. There is NO synapse on the table. The objective on the Tyranid side is within 9" (thus even with a 6" move they could technically get in range) and during his turn the Gaunts WoN would come back and claim this objective.

Now I know this is HARDCORE cheeze and cheap as you can be but it's something that can change the outcome of the game. If they can come on the board with no restrictions and ignore IB for that turn then they can win the game or at least tie the game possibly at the last moment with no possible way for the other player to reclaim that objective.

Wait... it's not like you don't have some control... don't kill them, or try to shoot/weaken the unit with out killing it off entirely.

Ivellos wrote:So I recently encountered two problems with wording and rule set that occur with Tyranids.

First is In close combat:

I have a brood of 20 Hormagaunts fighting 10 Space Marines. Say 10 Gaunts die and 4 Space Marines die. The Gaunts are in Synapse range. Question is does synapse force the Gaunts to take an additional 6 saves since they lost combat by 6? They aren't considered Fearless but are "assumed to pass all leadership type tests".

Has been answered very clearly but I supose one more voice is not in vain.

Yes they suffer 6 additional wounds that they may save for.

Secondly Without Number:

This is really a two part question. A cheap gaunt brood of 8 Spinegaunts that have Without Number can be purchased to hopefully keep an objective almost indefinitely however when said brood is no longer under Synapse there are two problems. One to move on the board does it need to take a leadership test? The Rule doesn't seem to define when the Gaunts come back on the table. Secondly If they don't and they move on over an objective can they claim said objective as long as they don't move or attempt to do anything or do they need to take a LD test to act as a troops choice that can claim objectives?

I've already come to my own conclusions but I would really like to see what other people have to say about these two instances and if they can shed any light on the opposing views.

A new brood that arrives is stated to arrive from the Nid players own table edge, as far as I can see there is no reason to make a synapse test the turn they arrive as it is stated that they move onto the board, in any case even if they failed they would have to fall back towards the closest synapse creature wich I will here asume is on the table

Any troops unit that is allowed to claim objectives will do so automatically as long as the objective is not contested (naturally here not taking into account any special mission rules).

As the Nid player will always be allowed to lurk I see no problem with having a nid unit outside of synapse range claiming an objective for several turns.

Additionally as a unit that reverts to its instinctive behaviour will "fall back" towards the closest synapse creature rather than its own table edge it will in all reality meen the Nids will "fall back" forward rather than off the table (well not unless all synapse creatures have been killed).

It is not cheese, nor 'hardcore' cheese. It is a very costly upgrade and rarely worth its points. About the only time it is useful is in the scenario you described. Either don't kill the last one, or have *something* near the objective to contest it.


Fester: It can't claim objectives while Lurking...

Sadly the LGS owner doesnt agree with you coredump and thus is making it so I can't use this rule to my advantage.

How?? What is he basing it on? I mean, it is his store, so he can make up any rules he wants; allow marines to move 15", make all vehicles tanks, whatever.

But I am curious what rules he is using to try and justify his position.

There are tons of ways to "win the game or at least tie the game possibly at the last moment with no possible way for the other player to reclaim that objective."

This is not cheese.

If you do this, and win. Look across the table and say... "Thank you for killing my WON unit, I almost lost that one... good thing you aren't intelligent enough to look ahead a whole turn."

And if he's the "shop owner" wait until the store is full and ask him in a loud voice if he always makes up shop rules so that he wins at other games too... then don't go back and play there because it's not worth your time.

Anyone who makes up rules to win (especially if they are trying to make the game fun and sell stuff) is a loser that you shouldn't want anything to do with.

He thinks its too cheesy and doesn't think its fair. I really can't argue with him as its his tournament. Its my LGS tho so even if it is lame its the only place around and I basically have to continue to go there if I want to play.

Its the Rules as Written, not the rules you make up as you play.

Ivellos wrote:He thinks its too cheesy and doesn't think its fair. I really can't argue with him as its his tournament. Its my LGS tho so even if it is lame its the only place around and I basically have to continue to go there if I want to play.

How is this not fair?
You have payed points to get the ability have you not?

If he tries that again ask him if its fair that your oponent has a las cannon in his unit, true he payed for it but is it really fair...

Ivellos wrote:He thinks its too cheesy and doesn't think its fair. I really can't argue with him as its his tournament. Its my LGS tho so even if it is lame its the only place around and I basically have to continue to go there if I want to play.

Ask him when he is going to run a 40k tourney?
Dare I ask what is done about lash?
What is the response to real or actual issues?


shrug

There's no chaos playing:-O