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Hello all. I've been floating this list, and its style of play, on the B&C(And /tg/ too, but whatever) for a few months now. Wanting to get you're opinions on it as well.

HQ-Chaplain MoS
Term Honor
Power Fist
Bionics
Frag
Total-156p

HQ-Emperors Champ
Accept Any Challenge
Total-140p

Elite-Dreadnought
Lascannon
ML
Extra Armor
Total-140p

Troops-7x Intiates, 7x Neophytes
Power Fist
Melta Gun
LRC, Smoke Launchers, Blessed Hull
Total-500p

Troops-7x Intiates, 7x Neophytes
Power Fist
Melta Gun
LRC, Smoke Launchers, Blessed Hull
Total-500p

Heavy Support-Vindicator
Machine Spirit
Smoke Launchers
Total-158p

Heavy Support-Vindicator
Machine Spirit
Smoke Launchers
Total-158p

Total-1747p

This is more of a compromising list, other variants favor dreads more or Vindis more. Need to go about playtesting which version works best.

Thinking about dropping the P-fist on the chap and something else to give the Dread Venerable+Tank Hunters.

I could replace neophytes in the chap's squad for Cerobyte servitors, simply to increase the zeal move while not actually weakening my cannon fodder ability. Thoughts?

As for Blessed Hull, that is both a spite move on eldar, and a "Why not, not much else". I'm debating replacing it with a Speeder+Melta, but I don't know which will be as effective, gimping the AT of two problem armies while sacrificing 50p against other armies. In such an army, its not that big of a point sink, I just need to see how much I lose against other armies, and how much I gain against Eldar. See if its worth it. Makes me feel kinda nooby, but in a Tourney say, where I know quite a few will play eldar, I dunno if I can resist it.

Drop the Chaplain.

Take the psyker vow, and mount everyone up in LRC (so 3xLRC + troops inside instead of everything else you've got).

12" deploy + free move D6" against most armies + 12" move + 3" out + 6" charge = HELLO!

First turn charges, never turn them down.

Stelek wrote:Drop the Chaplain.

Take the psyker vow, and mount everyone up in LRC (so 3xLRC + troops inside instead of everything else you've got).

12" deploy + free move D6" against most armies + 12" move + 3" out + 6" charge = HELLO!

First turn charges, never turn them down.

Why drop the Chap, hes the best CC unit I can purchase. Take what, a marshal? I laugh at thee. If you mean nothing, you really don't get this list, or how I am running it.

No again. Abhor The Witch only works if they have psykers. Since that can rule out a lot of armies, that is ineffective. I'm not taking something that defines my army if it is uncertain to do anything. Accept Any Challenge is a great all-comers vow, and makes my units the best CC SM in the game. Also, Rerolls to hit. Not giving that up for much. Rerolls to hit, 2nd turn charge>No rerolls, 1st turn charge. I can wait, I have patience. When I do hit, the punch will be all the greater. Its not even a guaranteed first turn charge.

IC supported squads are much better then non-IC supported squads. Also, if I just take LRC's, I can't kill a monolith. I won't take 3x LRC's until 2000p, maybe higher. I need the other unit support.

I'd prefer 2nd turn charges then leave the fate of my army to lesser squads, without IC's/Rerolls to hit. I also like the dread/vindi support. They do me well(A single vindi has won me many a game).

I mean HQ's aren't required--only the Emperor's Champion is. For his points, you can get more guys. More guys = good.

Abhor the Witch doesn't rule out many armies. It rules out...Tau.

Being the best at CC as marines (which in actuality, you aren't--CSM get that prize) is neat, but isn't that like coming in first in an kicking contest?

I do see your point about IC supported squads. After all, if you win by 15 it's better than by 10, yes? Sorry, did ya really think this after playing 5th a few times?

Why do you need to kill Monoliths with 45 CC troops? Did you think a tri-lith army can do anything but die? Have you played tri-lith lately? The shines off.

Re-rolls to hit is fine. I've no idea why vindis would win you games, lascannons take care of them pretty well. Unless your opponents are firing lascannons at the LRC....which is all kinds of sad.

Stelek wrote:I mean HQ's aren't required--only the Emperor's Champion is. For his points, you can get more guys. More guys = good.

Abhor the Witch doesn't rule out many armies. It rules out...Tau.

Being the best at CC as marines (which in actuality, you aren't--CSM get that prize) is neat, but isn't that like coming in first in an kicking contest?

I do see your point about IC supported squads. After all, if you win by 15 it's better than by 10, yes? Sorry, did ya really think this after playing 5th a few times?

Why do you need to kill Monoliths with 45 CC troops? Did you think a tri-lith army can do anything but die? Have you played tri-lith lately? The shines off.

Re-rolls to hit is fine. I've no idea why vindis would win you games, lascannons take care of them pretty well. Unless your opponents are firing lascannons at the LRC....which is all kinds of sad.

Its 1750p. I want the Chap. EC only if I'm going 1 large squad/LRC, otherwise, the chaps help. Especially since I can't get more guys without taking a new LRC for the squad.

Tau and BT. Sorry, but besides CSM/DH/Eldar/Nids, they don't generally use Psykers. At least not enough to make it worth planning for. Hell, besides DH/Nids, I can expect some of the armies of any race to forgo psykers, and some armies to mostly forgo them. It's not really going to happen as often as needed to base an army on it. Its a massive waste of a vow. Its not nearly good enough off an all comers list, nor is it worth it for a non-guaranteed first turn charge. In fact, it is such a useless vow I haven't heard of it being used.... Ever. Unless you are tooling you're list, even this, its fail. Check the B&C, you won't find one list with it.

I'm only getting 2x P-fist attacks per squad with the IC's. That won't do much. Then the 18 initaite attacks, 21 neophyte ones, won't do that much. Besides that, only about 12-13 will wound. If I'm generally a little luckier then average, and I charge. All but 4-6 will be shrugged off by the armor save. Then, maybe, 2 from the P-fist because of accept. So 5-8 on a good day. That will not win me a battle. The IC also gives me the ability to knock out some guys before they attack back. That is a good thing, it minimizes my losses. I want the assurance of victory, I don't have that normally.

Another problem with full LRC is that I have no good ranged weapons. Vindis are awesome, and the dreads actually allow me to hit things that would normally fly circles around my LRC's. And vindis just pop squads. I have had vindis save me, blasting to shreds units that would normally destroy my unit once it was out of CC. They can't always spare Lascannons on the vindis, nor can they make sure they actually make it useless. Immobilized vindis have killed 2-3 squads for me, I swear by them.

Monoliths can ruin a squad if they are out of CC for more then a second. Also, pulling squads out of CC and getting them a reroll on WBB, hell, those things are priority targets in my book. Not being able to kill them is a major issue.

The fact that they do hit the LRC over the vindi some of the time is rather fun. Though, I do use the LRC to shield the Vindi where possible, so its not always their choice. Even it they take time to hit the vindi, fire magnets are always good.

Stelek wrote:Drop the Chaplain.

Take the psyker vow, and mount everyone up in LRC (so 3xLRC + troops inside instead of everything else you've got).

12" deploy + free move D6" against most armies + 12" move + 3" out + 6" charge = HELLO!

First turn charges, never turn them down.

I have to say Stelek, I like HotSoup's case here. He's prepared a list that literally is an all-comers list.

The psyker vow is trash. The only bonus is a scout move, which this list does not need. It will be in CC in very few turns anyways. I would say the first turn charge is useless if you're BT and you're not capitalizing on your biggest strength in the entire dex.

The only thing I would comment on is the PF on the Chaplain. You have a PW for free, and you're paying points to get a power fist? Hm. Interesting.

The Vindicators are harder to kill than you claim, Stelek. A lascannon shot could take it down, but if they're shooting the Vindi, then they're not shooting the LRC. The LRC is more valuable.

It has 30 marines in it.

You remove the gun or the tracks from the vindicators, the dread, or the land raiders...and those units cease to function.

Vindis you pick off at range, the dread you ignore, the LRC you meltagun, and the guys inside you kill with shooting and/or close combat.

It's very, very, bad.

Taking the psyker vow is very very good in THIS list, because all of his guns have a crappy range. Maybe you noticed everything but the lascannon dread has a craptacular 24" range.

What that lascannon dread is going to do is beyond me.

Watch as the army gets picked apart while it goes 'pow pow'? Great advice...

Quick question, and it may be a painfully obvious one, but what's with the 3", Stelek?

Stelek wrote:It has 30 marines in it.

You remove the gun or the tracks from the vindicators, the dread, or the land raiders...and those units cease to function.

Vindis you pick off at range, the dread you ignore, the LRC you meltagun, and the guys inside you kill with shooting and/or close combat.

It's very, very, bad.

Taking the psyker vow is very very good in THIS list, because all of his guns have a crappy range. Maybe you noticed everything but the lascannon dread has a craptacular 24" range.

What that lascannon dread is going to do is beyond me.

Watch as the army gets picked apart while it goes 'pow pow'? Great advice...

The psyker vow gives you a measly D6", which isn't much. It won't make hardly any difference, at least. Taking it also debunks most of your CC prowess, as I've already said. Melta-ing the LRC will be very difficult because of the fact that a massive assault unit is inside each one.

There are two Vindis, and the opponent probably won't be able to take them both down in the turn he has before he faces the guns.

The Lascannon dread is very effective (I've seen work wonders against me many a time before), but I think it desperately needs to be Venerable with TH. That will be invaluable in not only offense, but defense as well.

You seem to think that Vindis are easy to pop, but your 11 Rhinos aren't

Cadian16th wrote:Quick question, and it may be a painfully obvious one, but what's with the 3", Stelek?

2" out of the vehicle, and your own 1" base. 3" inches from nowhere. A little trick in the business

Isn't much, but for enemies hiding more than 12" in, it can give you a boost. Although with this army, you don't much to boost.

CC prowess? From the ONE unit that can benefit from it? The crusader squad without the chaplain attached?

You do realize if the Chaplain led squad can't break the enemy, and the other squad can't break the enemy...if they can't break the enemy together...YOU'RE DEAD! GG.

Wait, the Vindi's aren't hiding behind the crusaders so they can't get shot and gain a 3+ save if they can? LOLZ! Excellent tactics. You should put this in an article.

"No I'm 12" in, I move 12", then I move 6" and I fire 24" and you can't hide!"

What if you are immobilized or lose your gun on turn one because you were foolish and setup 12" in so I get clear shots?

"Uhhh..."

That's correct, 11 Rhinos aren't easy to pop.

Especially not by this army. Vindi has to hit to take the Rhino out. Move + Scatter + Oops + Rhino move + 2 Meltas disembark = Dead Vindi.

Are the LRC your tank hunting units now? The single shot meltas? The preferred enemy power fists with 1 base attack? Your Dreadnought which isn't even guaranteed to kill a Rhino? HOLY CRIPES DO YOU KNOW WHAT A BLACK TEMPLAR ARMY EVEN DOES?!

This sure isn't a viable BT list.

I'm sorry you seem to think it is.

When you face a horde army, don't forget the magic number "3", ok?

My... God.

Stelek wrote:Isn't much, but for enemies hiding more than 12" in, it can give you a boost. Although with this army, you don't much to boost.

No. Preferred enemy against everything>D6 again armies with psykers. You don't know the first thing about BT, or you would know this. The preferred enemy makes BT in 5th ed.

Stelek wrote:
CC prowess? From the ONE unit that can benefit from it? The crusader squad without the chaplain attached?

No, the CC prowess comes from the Accept Any Challenge Vow you seem to think is so weak compared to D6 movement against psyker armies. Your silly wanting of it over Accept ruins my ability to beat Noise Marines/Plague Marines in CC. You know it effects the whole army right? Right?

Stelek wrote:
You do realize if the Chaplain led squad can't break the enemy, and the other squad can't break the enemy...if they can't break the enemy together...YOU'RE DEAD! GG.

What? Huh? Who? I have two very deadly close range tanks, and two very deadly CC squads. The emperors champ or chap are now both very trustworthy to break almost any unit(Lash guy, Undivided lord+Daemon weapon, and 10 chosen+Nurgle fell to my EC squad. After I blew most of said EC squad up with my Vindi...) rather easily. Sure, I will take heavy casualties, but I can break lines easily. I also make it hard for them with my LRC+Squad up close. "Do I rapid fire into them, or shot the ML/Las at the LRC?" This allows my troops less death by shooting. I have yet to play a game where the squads haven't made 1.5x or more of their points, and not killed/harmed most of at least two units. Each. The LRC's also are great up close, popping squads that I don't feel like charging, or can be trouble later on, once I get out of combat. Don't knock them, 12 twin linked bolter shots, 4 assault cannon shots, 1 melta, and maybe one storm bolter, things die. Great support, up close.

Stelek wrote:
Wait, the Vindi's aren't hiding behind the crusaders so they can't get shot and gain a 3+ save if they can? LOLZ! Excellent tactics. You should put this in an article.

They are, for the first few turns. I'm thinking triangle formation, LRC's on the outside, Vindis inside. All smoke, of course.. Who said they weren't? I think the stuff you're pulling out of your ass is becoming more obviously wrong.

Stelek wrote:
"No I'm 12" in, I move 12", then I move 6" and I fire 24" and you can't hide!"

What unit is this? Only vehicles/Jump(Fast) Infantry can move 12", and they cannot run, where did the 6" come from. Also, if you move 12", you aren't shooting much.

Stelek wrote:
What if you are immobilized or lose your gun on turn one because you were foolish and setup 12" in so I get clear shots?

"Uhhh..."

I don't give you clear shots. Stop assuming things, where the hell are you getting this? Besides, I'm in a LR, sizes are gone, terrain hugging is less effective. You set up to give your tanks the most cover from their AT, but with terrain the way it is, its really hard to stop a LRC being seen. Might as well rely on my A14 to protect me most of the time, and hope the little obscured I do get first turn helps. That and they cannot decide between tanks.

Stelek wrote:
That's correct, 11 Rhinos aren't easy to pop.

Especially not by this army. Vindi has to hit to take the Rhino out. Move + Scatter + Oops + Rhino move + 2 Meltas disembark = Dead Vindi.

You are very sure of yourself. Besides that, why would I hit a rhino with a vindi? Do you know what tactics are? Also, meltas aren't as awesome as you seem to think. Enjoy the magical wiff. You have many chances to do so, don't knock it. Played a game earlier today, 2x Meltas and 1x Multimelta failed to do anything but kill the assault cannon after 4 turns. Yum.

Stelek wrote:
Are the LRC your tank hunting units now? The single shot meltas? The preferred enemy power fists with 1 base attack?

Dude, you're the guy who said to go all LRC. I never use them as AT weapons unless its the back target(Rear armor 10, I shoot it, ect). I have the Dreads for AT, they work very well. The preferred enemy+1 attack(2 on charge) is still just as likely to wound as a PW now or a P-fist in 4th ed, don't knock it.

Stelek wrote:
Dreadnought which isn't even guaranteed to kill a Rhino?

Wow, things are guaranteed in 40k now? Nothing is guaranteed, so knocking a unit for not being so is... odd, to say the least.

Stelek wrote:
HOLY CRIPES DO YOU KNOW WHAT A BLACK TEMPLAR ARMY EVEN DOES?!

I do, but your wanting to use the 2nd most useless vow and your support of 1 IC all LRC (That and you think a Las/ML dread can't kill a rhino, but you are sure your two meltas can pop a LRC/Vindi) show you don't have the slightest idea what BT do, or how they do it.

Stelek wrote:
This sure isn't a viable BT list.

I'm sorry you seem to think it is.

When you face a horde army, don't forget the magic number "3", ok?

Isn't Viable? I have only lost one game with it. And that was against a serious powergamer, and I killed 9 guys from my LRC with a stray vindi shot. And he barely won. BT are already being called cheesey and unfair with the new rules, LRC rush? I'm getting called beardy, cheesy, and a powergamer all over the place.

It's a power-gaming list, easily, and it is a very good all-rounder. Though, you say a trash vow like Abhor the Witch is awesome, possibly, what you say sucks may just be... Awesome? Works for me.

Anyone else? I can get Burning Star's comments over Aim and Stelek is... Not experienced in BT(Though I do hear he is an Eldar Guru), so if I can get some other opinions, that would be great.

Good Lord Stelek, you are thick.

And you both better watch it before someone locks this thread like they did the Outflanking one...

But otherwise HotSoup, don't worry too much about Stelek. He's our resident crab. If a list isn't a powergaming list, he will let you know every little thing 'wrong' with it and then tell you exactly how a game against your army list would play out . Some things just can't be helped though.

I don't see where half your points are coming from. The Vindis and Dread are your anti-tank. Your LRCs and Crusaders are your infantry-raping class, especially when the entire squad pops out unmolested from your AV14 LRC. The Chaplain and Chump make amazing support characters in combat, and each has the potential to destroy an enemy character or destroy enemy troops, especially when you throw in the Preferred Enemy vow. Rerolls to hit? WS6? S6 Power weapon? That leaves hardly anything to chance.

And You do realize that if the Chaplain does break the enemy... or if the other squad does... or if they both do... then the enemy is toasted! And that is a heck of a lot more likely than the scenario you described.

You're also being very presumptuous. Who said that the Vindi's aren't hiding? HotSoup himself said smoke first turn. That's the entire army making it halfway across the board while being obscured.

What if you very realistically whif your shot at destroying the LRC from 12"? Even if you do destroy it, the squad comes out and you take it up the butt next assault phase.

LRCs aren't reliable tank hunters, but they can do the job. A Venerable dread can pop tanks by snapping his fingers. (The Dread really needs to be Venerable)

And I completely fail to see how this army would be in trouble against a horde. 2 Vindis? 2 LRCs?

Man, you are thick.

But now we're just getting to the point where we're arguing over unknown variables. I think this is a solid, all-comers list.

EDIT: One way or another, assuming that everything you say is correct, that is a handful of armies of a possible TONS. And that's still not gonna give him that much trouble!

Not a bad list, but I'd drop the dread and buy a command squad with a marshal. He functions better than a chaplain now. Give him twin lightning claws and termie honors, give the squad Furious charge. He's now a hidden character that re-rolls all his to-hit rolls and all his to-wound rolls. The squad absolutely kills whatever it touches. Not to sure about the Vindis. I'd rather use those points to get another Landraider chassis in there...or more bodies. I run 2 LRC's and one LR in my 1750pt list. I'd also drop the numbers down of neophyte that you have. They don't benefit from the vow, so at that point they are dead weight. The do make nice bullet catchers and power weapon absorbers though. So far my 1750pt. list hasn't lost a game in 5th.

Capt K

CaptKaruthors wrote:Not a bad list, but I'd drop the dread and buy a command squad with a marshal. He functions better than a chaplain now. Give him twin lightning claws and termie honors, give the squad Furious charge. He's now a hidden character that re-rolls all his to-hit rolls and all his to-wound rolls. The squad absolutely kills whatever it touches. Not to sure about the Vindis. I'd rather use those points to get another Landraider chassis in there...or more bodies. I run 2 LRC's and one LR in my 1750pt list. I'd also drop the numbers down of neophyte that you have. They don't benefit from the vow, so at that point they are dead weight. The do make nice bullet catchers and power weapon absorbers though. So far my 1750pt. list hasn't lost a game in 5th.

Capt K

Marshals are only decent if you are using Rites of Battle, all of my squads will have a character in them anyways, Rites of battle is useless. Fearless is better then giving already LD10 squads... LD10. Otherwise, I'm only 5p more then a marshal with a PW+Combat/Storm shield, so unless you are using Rites of Battle, the chap is better in every way. That and lightning claws cost to much to be useful.

Command squads are also meh, if I wanted a USR I would take SB, they do it better. Besides, the dread is a solid AT, why the hell would I drop it. Will the command squad kill tanks at range?

Neophytes are there for the fire absorption. And the chap allows them to reroll, always a plus. I have yet to think I need more Initiates, and I have thought I could use more neophytes, so I think I'm fine there.

I swear by the vindis, they have yet to not make up double(Or More) of their combined points(Usually 1 gets shot up quickly and the other goes and destroys three squads).

I have lost one game with this list, though I did vindi myself. Ah well, cannot win them all.

Marshals are only decent if you are using Rites of Battle, all of my squads will have a character in them anyways, Rites of battle is useless. Fearless is better then giving already LD10 squads... LD10. Otherwise, I'm only 5p more then a marshal with a PW+Combat/Storm shield, so unless you are using Rites of Battle, the chap is better in every way. That and lightning claws cost to much to be useful.

Trust me, the Marshal is better. You don't need to have all your units lead by characters then. Chaplains Fearless only really comes into play vs. shooting. Templars are fearless in Close combat...which is where you want them anyways. A twin LC marshal is cheap for the amount of damage he does compared to a chaplain.

Command squads are also meh, if I wanted a USR I would take SB, they do it better. Besides, the dread is a solid AT, why the hell would I drop it. Will the command squad kill tanks at range?

The points are a wash vs. SB. They technically cost the same at that point. However the advantage with a command squad is that you get a discount on the Apothecary and it's the only unit in the BT list that allows you to take a Vet Sgt with PF (a net gain of +1 attacks) So once you add in the Marshal with Claws (who becomes an untargetable character at that point), you have a unit that is better than SB. You Command squad isn't meant to attack at range. Though it can if you give it a meltagun to give them a chance.

Neophytes are there for the fire absorption. And the chap allows them to reroll, always a plus. I have yet to think I need more Initiates, and I have thought I could use more neophytes, so I think I'm fine there.

Right, but you can take slightly less Neophytes and jockey the points around to take more crusaders...who get Preferred Enemy all the time. What happens when I kill your chaplain?

I swear by the vindis, they have yet to not make up double(Or More) of their combined points(Usually 1 gets shot up quickly and the other goes and destroys three squads).

If the vindis are working for you, good on ya...they are not my cup of tea. I'd rather have a 3rd Landraider variant. YMMV.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Trust me, the Marshal is better. You don't need to have all your units lead by characters then. Chaplains Fearless only really comes into play vs. shooting. Templars are fearless in Close combat...which is where you want them anyways. A twin LC marshal is cheap for the amount of damage he does compared to a chaplain.

He's not, trust me. I don't need to have more then the EC, but I want to. I like IC supported squads a lot, they do a lot more then ones without IC's. And since all of my combat squads with have IC's, the Rites of Battle is useless. It doesn't help. Fearless/Guiding Zeal(Since I can no longer use it to charge) and giving Neo's rerolls helps more. Along with it being more survivable then a Marshal+LC. Much more. My chap has lived 2 rapid firing Fire Warrior squads, 3x Broadsides, and 2x Devil Fish's. Just to take him down, and it failed.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Right, but you can take slightly less Neophytes and jockey the points around to take more crusaders...who get Preferred Enemy all the time. What happens when I kill your chaplain?

The chap will generally die after the neophytes have, or at least after he gives them a turn of rerolls. I'd rather have more cannon fodder, I have never felt a time where I want feel I need more initiates, and I have felt I want more neophytes on many occasions.

He's not, trust me. I don't need to have more then the EC, but I want to. I like IC supported squads a lot, they do a lot more then ones without IC's. And since all of my combat squads with have IC's, the Rites of Battle is useless. It doesn't help. Fearless/Guiding Zeal(Since I can no longer use it to charge) and giving Neo's rerolls helps more. Along with it being more survivable then a Marshal+LC. Much more. My chap has lived 2 rapid firing Fire Warrior squads, 3x Broadsides, and 2x Devil Fish's. Just to take him down, and it failed.

Actually, I don't...LOL. A chaplain is nice, but there is seriously, no way he's killing more models a turn than a Marshal with termie honors, LC's, furious charge, and aided by Preferred enemy. Sorry, I don't see it. Besides, the advantage of the retinue is that he can't be singled out in a combat...he doesn't even need to be in base to base at that point. Like I said, I really don't see Fearless as that big of an advantage vs. shooting compared to LD10. With Rights of Battle, you also don't need all your units lead by a character either...thus freeing up possibly more points to field more guys. Controlling zeal isn't that big of an issue since you don't even have to move the full distance rolled anyways. Additionally, you get Fearless in CC anyways and it is there that it is the biggest advantage...you don't need the chappy for that. Is the chaplain a great character for the Templars? Sure. But he isn't the de facto choice anymore maybe for a more foot infantry list, but not for one that is more mechanized.

The chap will generally die after the neophytes have, or at least after he gives them a turn of rerolls. I'd rather have more cannon fodder, I have never felt a time where I want feel I need more initiates, and I have felt I want more neophytes on many occasions.

One turn of re-rolls isn't great compared to say taking more crusaders who get re-rolls every turn. Like I said, your list isn't bad...but it isn't as nasty as it could be either.

Capt K

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Actually, I don't...LOL. A chaplain is nice, but there is seriously, no way he's killing more models a turn than a Marshal with termie honors, LC's, furious charge, and aided by Preferred enemy. Sorry, I don't see it. Besides, the advantage of the retinue is that he can't be singled out in a combat...he doesn't even need to be in base to base at that point. Like I said, I really don't see Fearless as that big of an advantage vs. shooting compared to LD10. With Rights of Battle, you also don't need all your units lead by a character either...thus freeing up possibly more points to field more guys. Controlling zeal isn't that big of an issue since you don't even have to move the full distance rolled anyways. Additionally, you get Fearless in CC anyways and it is there that it is the biggest advantage...you don't need the chappy for that. Is the chaplain a great character for the Templars? Sure. But he isn't the de facto choice anymore maybe for a more foot infantry list, but not for one that is more mechanized.

Okay, exactly how many more points is your marshal over my chap? And how fast does he die to a power fist? Also, command squads, overpriced. Not worth bothering with, at least not for me, yet. Worth playtesting, however. Retinue isn't worth more much a command squad can cost. I guess budget, but even then, its costing 200 or so points.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
One turn of re-rolls isn't great compared to say taking more crusaders who get re-rolls every turn. Like I said, your list isn't bad...but it isn't as nasty as it could be either.

Capt K

Again, cannon fodder. It helps. I've been told this before, maybe I should playtest it.

Stelek wrote:Drop the Chaplain.

Take the psyker vow, and mount everyone up in LRC (so 3xLRC + troops inside instead of everything else you've got).

12" deploy + free move D6" against most armies + 12" move + 3" out + 6" charge = HELLO!

First turn charges, never turn them down.

such situation sounds awesome,but just live in imagination.

why your opponents have psykers?why they deploy as far as possible to their tableside?and a why to the existance of a straight route to the nearest visible enemy.

I don't see why you want the chaplain when you're not really using any of his advantages. Litanies of hate does nothing now with accept any challenge, you're not walking so you don't care about the bonus to zeal moves and on top of that you're buying him a power fist so you're essentially paying for a power weapon that you're never going to use.

I also agree that you don't need the Marshal's Ld 10 Rites of Battle in this list so why not just take the cheaper Marshal (I forget what he's called ...Castellan maybe?, the Ld 9 guy) and equip him the same way as the chaplain and save some points?

HotSoup wrote:
Okay, exactly how many more points is your marshal over my chap? And how fast does he die to a power fist? Also, command squads, overpriced. Not worth bothering with, at least not for me, yet. Worth playtesting, however. Retinue isn't worth more much a command squad can cost. I guess budget, but even then, its costing 200 or so points.

You are missing the obvious and only looking at points values.

The Chaplain's "Litanies" are useless with the Emperor's Champion's "Preferred Enemy". The Chaplain's "Fearless" doesn't help you because you're in LRC's most of the time, and Black Templars are Fearless in close combat. The Chaplain will be killed long before he can use his powerfist because he's an independent character, and you shouldn't be charging tanks because you have A dread, Vindi's, and Multi-meltas on your LRC's for that.

Now, the Marshall leading a command squad is untargettable in CC, because of the retinue rule, so he will not die to a powerfist, but your chaplain will. With the Lightning Claws, the Marshall is definetely doing more damage then the chaplain, and also getting a benefit of the EC's "Preferred Enemy". The command squad also get a veteran skill, which CaptainK suggested Furious Charge. So now your Marshall hopping out of his LRC is I6 S5, with re-rolls all around. His boyz are also I5 S5 with re-rolls to hit. Finally, the marshall gives his leadership to your entire army.

EDIT:

Also, you can always give the Marshall a powerfist, since he's untargettable, and let'er rip.

Preferred Enemy pretty much replaces the need for a chaplain in BT's anymore, unless you are walking and using Grimaldus, because he brings everybody with him for Zeal.

Thanks Whitedragon for helping me out. I didn't know how to explain it any other way...LOL. Hidden Marshal's are awesome.

FYI, HotSoup the marshal is only 140pts...sometimes 130 if I need to keep him as lean as possible.

Capt K