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Im a Necron and Tyranid player atm, and im thinking I want my next army to be Space Wolves. The problem is im not sure how they play compared to most regualr marines, what a basic competitive list would even consist of and how good they truly are. So basically tactically what are some of their pro's/con's and why should i start or not start a space wolves army? If oyu wanted to post a list too thats fine.

Space Wolves are short ranged defensive fighters. To be real effective we have to be within rapidfire range or less. At best we are a second tier army, but most likely a 3rd tier list.

Pros:
Flavor
Background Story
Counter Attack
Wolf Pelts (+1 to counter attack)
Wolf Scout's OBEL

Cons:
Little effective long range anti-tank (Long Fangs don't cut it)
True Grit, hampers counter attack for anyone with a bolter
SW are a late game army, expect a beating the first couple of turns.

Space Wolves 1485 pts

HQ: Wolf Lord
w/ Lightning Claws, Belt of Russ, Frags, & Wolf Pelt

HQ: Venerable Dreadnought
w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Heavy Flamer, & Extra Armor

Elite: Wolf Scouts (x5)
w/ 2 power weapons, meltagun, frags, melta bombs

Troop: Grey Hunters (x9)
w/ Bolters, Powerfist, Power Weapon, Flamer, & Frag Grenades
-Wolf Guard w/ Bolter, Power Weapon, & Frag Grenades

Troop: Grey Hunters (x9)
w/ Bolters, Powerfist, Power Weapon, Meltagun, & Frag Grenades
-Wolf Guard w/ Bolter, Power Weapon, & Frag Grenades

Troop: Blood Claws (x15)
w/ Powerfist & 2 Power Weapons
-Wolf Guard w/ Bolt Pistol & Powerfist

Heavy Support: Predator Annihilator
w/ Heavy Bolters Sponsons

Heavy Support: Vindicator
w/ Dozer Blade

Space Wolves with Land Raiders are scary again.

They do need to have their HQ requirement changes, since 1750 is really 1600 for SW (because a good SW HQ costs 150 points!) and that sucks.

BT got a reprieve, be nice if SW did but that's asking too much.

Crimson Devil wrote:Space Wolves are short ranged defensive fighters. To be real effective we have to be within rapidfire range or less. At best we are a second tier army, but most likely a 3rd tier list.

Pros:
Flavor
Background Story
Counter Attack
Wolf Pelts (+1 to counter attack)
Wolf Scout's OBEL

Wolf Pelts are now useless, Look in the 5th ed Universal special rules. To counter the fact that when you are charged in close combat all defenders move into combat (which in essence is the old counter-attack rule) now those units with counter-charge automatically get +1 attack when counter-charge.

IMHO its a pretty amazing buff that makes Space Wolves even scarier at close range.

They're an army that likes to get stuck in. If you want full cc Space Marines, go Blood Angels. Unlike the berserking style of BA, Grey Hunters and the like really come into their own in prolonged combats, due to true grit and their specialist close combat weapons (i.e. In tactical squads instead of heavy weapons space wolves get power fists and power weapons.)

Wolf pelts give you +1 on top of the +1.

So Space Wolves with Pelts have 4 attacks when you charge them, see? More if they are WGBL or characters.

So SW are not an army I should want to play competitively? Im not saying its all about winning I just was not sure if there was even a "cheese list" (i dont think anything legal is reallly cheese) but you know what I mean. I dont want to spend time and money on an army just because I want it to win (obivously depends on play lvl) but i consider myself a competitve tournament player who usually places well with my Crons and I dont want my face stomped in for playing SW but I know for a fact Ill never want to play a traditional Marine army.

Stelek wrote:Wolf pelts give you +1 on top of the +1.

So Space Wolves with Pelts have 4 attacks when you charge them, see? More if they are WGBL or characters.

Interesting

Very Interesting

DaBenzsta08 wrote:So SW are not an army I should want to play competitively? Im not saying its all about winning I just was not sure if there was even a "cheese list" (i dont think anything legal is reallly cheese) but you know what I mean. I dont want to spend time and money on an army just because I want it to win (obivously depends on play lvl) but i consider myself a competitve tournament player who usually places well with my Crons and I dont want my face stomped in for playing SW but I know for a fact Ill never want to play a traditional Marine army.

Space Wolves can be very strong, if you can use them well. Just get within close range where you can do this most damage possible. I Personally like long fangs, splitting fire is awesome. And i never take a list without my venerable dreadnought, they just never die, and you usually get first turn when using it.

DaBenzsta08 wrote:So SW are not an army I should want to play competitively? Im not saying its all about winning I just was not sure if there was even a "cheese list" (i dont think anything legal is reallly cheese) but you know what I mean. I dont want to spend time and money on an army just because I want it to win (obivously depends on play lvl) but i consider myself a competitve tournament player who usually places well with my Crons and I dont want my face stomped in for playing SW but I know for a fact Ill never want to play a traditional Marine army.

ANY army can be competitive.

SW need to get up close and hurt you with rapid fire. Then hurt you if you charge. Then hurt you again if you don't. lol

Drop pods, rhino rushes, and land raider/blood claw spam are all valid armies for SW.

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Some armies, have only ONE valid army that is actually competitive.

Others have 3-5 different builds.

Jervis armies generally are single builds, and still aren't very competitive.

Phil armies generally are 4+ builds, and all are very competitive.

I find competitive to be fun.

Others find Tic-Tac-Toe to be fun.

Im going to obviously tweak a list to my likings but what are some basic SW ways and choices that make them strong and competitive like said above a venerable dreadnaught sounds like a must.

Blood Claws + Land Raiders.

Grey Hunters and Dreads in Drop Pods.

Grey Hunters in Rhinos with LR anti-tank support.

Think that about covers most of the armies I'd consider competitive.

Landraiders are still stupidly expensive. I'd consider taking a few pred anilators as heavy to get the long range punch. Especially since you can park them in cover and get 4+ cover saves. They don't "have" to move. LR are ok for elite squads, but I wouldn't blow a Heavy support slot on one. The drop pod seems to be the space wolfs friend. It puts you right in the thick of things safely and you don't have to worry about them beating you at a distance.

When I looked into wolves the only real problem I saw was model count. Because of the HQ rules you tend to be a little low on numbers and with the increase of horde style lists they are going to find themselves greatly outnumbered in a lot of cases.

The important stuff has been said. Wolves rely on transport, and have gotten better in 5e with the change to Counter-attack and increased viability of transports.

Pods make Wolves good. The SW Venerable Dread is really, really good in a pod.

Rune Priests can take a Chooser of the Slain which negates half of the Infiltrators in the other army (which by a quick reading prevents Outflank as well, but I'd want to have the codex handy before I claimed it...).

A 5 man terminator squad led by a Wolf Guard Battle Leader can take three Assault Cannons, two at BS4 and one at BS5.

Blood Claws are 14 points and get 4 attacks on the first turn of assault whether charging or charged.

I still don't think they're as good as vanilla Marines (primarily as they have very limited anti-tank options and the core troop, the Grey Hunter, is overpriced), but they're better in 5e than they were in 4e, and even in 4e (in pods, at least) they were competitive.

thanks a lot for the help guys. I dont have a codex at hand b/c the store i go to doesnt have it in stock (its ancient looking) is a new dex due for the SW? Im used to the expensive hq honestly with my Necrons (usually taking a d-lord :-)

Yeh even in stores that keep themselves fairly updated, there isn't a SW codex to be seen. I'm pretty sure that games workshop canada's online store was sending out pdf copies of the rules if you emailed them. Or you could resort to shiftier methods.

Another Con: Space Wolves are an early 3rd edition codex which has been heavily rumored to be getting a new codex next year. I would be very cautious building an army around the current codex.

Plus, there's sure to be a whole new range of cool new models to go along with the new codex.

Space Wolves are very much a close-range army, similar to Khorne. The problem you run into with the Wolves is that Grey Hunters with bolters and frag grenades cost 19 points per model and are minimally better than a standard marine. Added to this that you need to take 3 HQs for anything 1501 points and up and you find yourself with a small, short range and close combat oriented army that has to footslog 24" while getting shot and returning very little firepower, or relies on drop pods and rhinos that reduce your small model count even further.

The part that really had me confused about the SW, and that I still can't get my head around, is the HQ thing. Why is it set up like that?

To me that is the biggest thing against the SW.

SW can also get 3 Assault Cannons in a Terminator squad - with the latest FAQ, you can do it without your opponent arguing with you (and one of those Assault Cannons is at BS 5).

The new SM codex should help SW's. Cheaper access to some fast multi-meltas (bikes and speeders) based on BA/DA pricing. Whirlwinds shoudl get the 'ignore cover' ammo. Landraiders get PotMS. 3+ storm shields for ICs and Termies.

If the rumored Drop Pod Assault rule is in the book, I may have to go back to fielding a drop pod army and give up the mechanized list. Especially with the Ven Dread giving re-roll on the first turn, SWs can be nasty in pods.

The HQs is a real negative. Especially since they don't have all the additional SM abiliities (Rites of Battle, Litanies of Hate, etc.) and are generally the same points (and don't come with any wargear either).

It's also not clear when the SW will get a new codex. Rumor was December/January. Rumor now is that it will be later since the minis aren't ready. I expect the HQ requirement to be eliminated but that Dreads will only be elites (with maybe Bjorn as a character dread that is an HQ).

Also, don't forget that ICs with Wolfguard Bodyguard benefit from the 5ed Retinue rule - they count as a squad upgrade and can't be targetted individually. And with Pods, rumoredly, going to a transport capacity of 12 PA or 6 in TDA, that's possibly 6 terminators with up to 9 wounds, and Runic Charms, and 3 ACs (or 3 Cyclone Missile Launchers that are rumored to be Hvy 2), and combi-weapons. It's an expense unit, but a real killy one.

ProtoClone wrote:The part that really had me confused about the SW, and that I still can't get my head around, is the HQ thing. Why is it set up like that?

To me that is the biggest thing against the SW.

It's basically just that for every 750 points, you need an HQ.

I don't see it as that big of an issue. I just take a wolf lord and a venerable dread, simple.