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Another challenge. From this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/215862.page

So before I retired my Deathwing project, I tested a few configurations of the DW.

This is the one I liked the best.

It wasn't unbeatable by any means, mind you.

It was fun to play though.

Troops:

4 x Deathwing squads, CML, Chainfistx1.

Deathwing Assault force:

Belial with LC.
Belials DW squad, heavy flamer, chainfist x2, apothecary, 3xLightning Claws.
GK Grand Master with Incinerator, Psychic Hood, Grimoire of True Names, Holy Relic, Sacred Incense, Holocaust, Terminator Armor.
DH Inquisitor in Terminator Armor, Power Fist, Emperor's Tarot, Incinerator, Holocaust.

EDIT: Added items bolded, above. My apologies for leaving it out, trying to make my armies more forum friendly means I forget things sometimes lol.

Looks like a normal foot DW army. No big threat.

Then the super unit arrives and it's not quite as fun as you thought.

There are 5 ablative wounds on this squad, and of course the free wound a turn from the apothecary.

Want to engage in close range firefights? Ok, 3 heavy flamers. We can play all day.

No? Allright, let's get into close combat.

Let's say I get a charge off on you.

Turn 1:

6 WS5 S6 power weapon attacks.
6 WS5 S4 lightning claw attacks.
8 WS4 Chainfist attacks @ S8.
4 WS4 Powerfist attacks @ S6.
15 WS4 S4 Lighting Claw attacks.

Yes, you're dead.

Oh you charged me again?

Well, I'll reveal my Holy Relic.

Repeat the above, minus anybody you've killed of course.

Give up yet?

Ok fine, you've got 30 orks around me. I'll Holocaust twice.

See, it isn't afraid of anything.

Gotta kill this unit, but it isn't easy in shooting or CC.

Yes, you can take an entire Ork horde one unit at a time with this unit.

I call it Seymour. lol

Don't forget the other 20 termies moving towards you...oh and this unit is the one that beats down the Seer Council without much difficulty.

Very interesting, I'll have to give it a try. Why not give them a LRC instead of a unit of termies?

So they can DWA in with belials unit?

The DA rules allow anyone in terminator armor to deep strike, not just deathwing terminator IC's.

Aaaah very nice.

So... you must fight alot of chaos considering the addition of incense and the grimoire.

This would also be a good way of including a teleport homer without the slowed RW bikes. Has the DH homer been updated?

Holocaust might not be so effective now in 5th since the opponent wraps around the unit of termies with defenders reaction before attacks are made.

Since there really isn't any good DH psychic powers other than that, perhaps forgo the psychic powers and just use the hood and add a null rod on the inquisitor? Kinda screws up the strength of that model, but ignoring psychic powers on the squad may come in handy to avoid mind wars and such.

Too bad you cant take DH HS slots. It would be a good opportunity to take one DH landraider as well for the new machine spirit errata.

Hellfury wrote:So... you must fight alot of chaos considering the addition of incense and the grimoire.

No but Chaos demons can cripple this unit. Making them nothing to worry about = win.

Hellfury wrote:This would also be a good way of including a teleport homer without the slowed RW bikes. Has the DH homer been updated?

It's the same as far as I know.

Hellfury wrote:Too bad you cant take DH HS slots. It would be a good opportunity to take one DH landraider as well for the new machine spirit errata.

Indeed.

I'm confused by the following:

Hellfury wrote:Holocaust might not be so effective now in 5th since the opponent wraps around the unit of termies with defenders reaction before attacks are made.

Hellfury wrote:Since there really isn't any good DH psychic powers other than that, perhaps forgo the psychic powers and just use the hood and add a null rod on the inquisitor? Kinda screws up the strength of that model, but ignoring psychic powers on the squad may come in handy to avoid mind wars and such.

Wait, what?

It's not good?

Say you charge 2 Boyz squads. They MUST pile in.

You kill 10 from each squad.

They pound you, and you lose 4 terminators.

Now you cast Holocaust.

There are no partial hits, so ignore the bit about 4+ hitting those partially under the template.

So you place the ordnance template TWICE, in contact with either Psyker.

Uhhh....let's say you "only" hit 10 Orks with each one.

Wound on 3+, save on 6+...you know Holocaust wounds count towards close combat results, right?

Ok if the Orks still have 12 members in each squad...they are fearless, and just lost combat by THIRTY TWO.

Ok 32 fearless wounds for each squad AND for any IC unlucky enough to be involved in the combat (like a KFF mek).

Poof. Both Ork squads disintegrate.

It makes more sense when you put it that way. Even if you dont get numbers as high in your example, anything to help CC resolution is going to favor this squad.

Thanks for spelling it out.

What I don't understand is how the template is placed twice. Do both the inquisitor and the grand master have the psyker power? Your OP didn't state that.

Also, I also do not know how you get "15 WS4 S4 Lighting Claw attacks." Belial is the only one I see who is armed with such and you already took his attacks into account.

After reading the DH FAQ and the DH homer entry, I am not sure if it would be a good idea to include as you have to place a template over the model and place the teleporting squad in that area, 3rd ed style.

Hellfury wrote:It makes more sense when you put it that way. Even if you dont get numbers as high in your example, anything to help CC resolution is going to favor this squad.

Thanks for spelling it out.

What I don't understand is how the template is placed twice. Do both the inquisitor and the grand master have the psyker power? Your OP didn't state that.

Also, I also do not know how you get "15 WS4 S4 Lighting Claw attacks." Belial is the only one I see who is armed with such and you already took his attacks into account.

After reading the DH FAQ and the DH homer entry, I am not sure if it would be a good idea to include as you have to place a template over the model and place the teleporting squad in that area, 3rd ed style.

Oops you're right, I didn't put the info in. Thought I did. I will edit.

All the termies that can have LC in Belials squad have it, and the inquisitor has Holocaust as well.

Yeah the DH homer is still an odd duck, but it does bypass the rules about deep striking entirely so you can place them spread out alot easier.

Stelek wrote:Yeah the DH homer is still an odd duck, but it does bypass the rules about deep striking entirely so you can place them spread out alot easier.

Thanks for the clarification.

On the Homer subject, I am not convinced that it would be easier for a couple reasons:
1) Its a pain to try and go back two editions to explain how DP worked in 3rd. Cant expect an opponent to have a working knowledge of an obsolete ruleset.
2) Now that most termies are on 40mm bases, I don't think it would be that easy to place them since the entire base has to be within the template.

I may have to scratch that idea. Shame.

Remember in the "old" rules, you were allowed to overlap your bases in order to fit on the deep strike template.

And older termies are often on 25mm bases.

Ah yes, that is a rather esoteric ruling. One which I forgot about.

Too much trouble to deal with. The advantage isn't great enough to make that a point of contention.

Sounds like a fun list to play.

As I love termies and DA but hadn't worked out how to play DW well. Being rather noobile. May have to give this list a try as it will allow me to dust off my GK Termies too.

Nice work

@Hellfury: You are correct.

@Apone: I'm looking into my crystal ball AND your eye. Man, your future isn't good!

DW is difficult to play, unforgiving for new players, and runs you quite a bit of change for little else.

I anticipate people making DW armies out of the Black Reach spearhead (along with multiple other armies of marines and some weird deffkopta heavy ork horde armies lol).

I have to admit that this squad is rather intriguing and does appear fun to play. Its definitely not something your opponent will see everyday. Most opponents I know of would have to atleast grudgingly admit that it is a sweet idea, even if they do consider it a bit abusive.

I have been thinking about this and something has been bugging me about this squads weapon config from the get go. I am curious if the psycannons wouldn't be a better bet than the incinerators.

Going by my experience, you will average about roughly three to four models with a template weapon. But you have to be close to do that. I understand that this squad is meant for CC, but the added flexibility of being able to reach out and touch someone @36" and still move is kind of nice with a weapon that ignores cover and invulnerable saves in 5th ed. With BS5 and 4, the chances of hitting are rather good.

So all things considered about equal, you will get as nearly as many hits on the way into assault with the psycannons, but also at a higher str. Besides, you still have the DW HF template as well.

While the psycannons would be 20 points more expensive, this squad is already an outrageous price, so the few extra points wont matter that much in the grand scheme of things. The greater flexibility may warrant the increase in price.

Not to mention modelling wise, GW has made it alot easier to get terminator psycannons now that they offer them for $12 for 5...

[edit]

Add the Deathwing Company Standard. (this bit is important as it gives all DA within 12" +1 Attack all the time, there isn't any 'reveal' clause)

Yeah I don't think I'll have loads of success. I just have a soft spot for Terminators since my childhood days of 2nd Edition jamming assault cannon's and playing Space Hulk on the Amiga.

But if there is fun way to play DW I'll give it a try.

Sorry, looks like I left something out again (but by the numbers I quoted, you should realize I *have* to have the company standard).

Psycannons do not ignore cover.

I agree with your thoughts on this, but remember the point of any super unit--to force the enemy to deal with it, run away from it, or let it run amok.

Since this unit always shows up turn 1, you can't exactly ignore it without having a very specific army build or losing the game.

The reason you take the flamers is this: You can, if you wish, split off from the formation and put the incinerators into 2 different squads while the HF deals with a 3rd, and while it might reduce your overall combat efficiency...you can effectively flame 3 units and charge 4....then you can holocaust 2 more.

Most armies don't have a unit that can threaten this one, so you can let the termies run into the enemy army and just go nuts.

Stelek wrote:Sorry, looks like I left something out again (but by the numbers I quoted, you should realize I *have* to have the company standard).

Ahh I thought those were numbers for including the holy relic. Gotcha.
However, the GKs dont benefit from the Deathwing banner, only dark angels units. Unlike the holy relic which benefits everyone. Thats why I thought the numbers reflected the holy relic and not the DW banner.

Stelek wrote:Psycannons do not ignore cover.

Gah! Reading comprehension FTW! I knew that idea was too good.

Stelek wrote:I agree with your thoughts on this, but remember the point of any super unit--to force the enemy to deal with it, run away from it, or let it run amok.

And because of this, what are your thoughts on giving this unit a LRC taxi then? I prefer DS tactics myself, as I have been using them for awhile, so the thought of taxing a termie unit is new to me, but this might be able to make this unit more effective so that it can do what it is supposed to do the turn this unit steps foot on the table.

Stelek wrote:Since this unit always shows up turn 1, you can't exactly ignore it without having a very specific army build or losing the game.

I really think the LRC might make it even more difficult to deal with.

Stelek wrote:The reason you take the flamers is this: You can, if you wish, split off from the formation and put the incinerators into 2 different squads while the HF deals with a 3rd, and while it might reduce your overall combat efficiency...you can effectively flame 3 units and charge 4....then you can holocaust 2 more.

Well, in that case it would indeed be good to include the Homer for both inquisitors then. No worries about DS template and all that. Plenty of room for 5 termies.

Evil stuff.

LRC + 2 LR is good, but I can't recommend it until GW gets all the LR to the GK standard and stops fething around with them.

Oh and as far as the banner goes--it gives all Dark Angels units a re-roll for morale and pinning (pointless in a DW army, of course). The wording for the bonus attack however is this:

"In addition, all model's in the standard bearer's unit add 1 to their attack characteristic."

That does include all IC's attached per the 5E rules.

Oh and there is only 1 inquisitor...the GK hero can have a homer if you want to. I guess you could drop everything else in the DWA on top of them.

Good or bad, I can't say.

Stelek wrote:LRC + 2 LR is good, but I can't recommend it until GW gets all the LR to the GK standard and stops fething around with them.

Oh and as far as the banner goes--it gives all Dark Angels units a re-roll for morale and pinning (pointless in a DW army, of course). The wording for the bonus attack however is this:

"In addition, all model's in the standard bearer's unit add 1 to their attack characteristic."

That does include all IC's attached per the 5E rules.

Ahh again reading comprehension for the win. *slaps forehead* I totally missed the second stipulation. Thanks.
Perhaps I should pay attention to the period at the end of the sentence regarding rerolling missed moral/pinning instead of assuming all DA also get +1 attack within 12" even. lol

I call it the GW reading bug.

You read the first sentence, and automagically "just know" the rest.

Never read it for years until someone challenges you.

Then you swear the text changed.

lol

This might work great with my "Imperial Fist Wing" since it pains me to see Dark Angels ally with the Inquisition!

Yea I don't think that Deathwing would ever go to battle with Grey Knights.

You're no match for my Misfortune!

(re-roll all successful armor saves)

corwindal5 wrote:Yea I don't think that Deathwing would ever go to battle with Grey Knights.

And 'counts as' is a problem?

Does it have to be inquisition? Why not 'belials twin brothers' or whatever?

Hmmm let's see if I got this right, fluffmeisters.

"My Dark Angels cannot go into battle with the Inquisition."

"You like losing then?"

"Well, no."

"Maybe you should get give it a try."

"Never! I will lose endless games to keep my Dark Angels pure!"

"Here, I think you need this. It's the latest in imperial teleport homer technology, it will help you in your fight against the Xenos."

"Really?"

"Yes, really. Stay pure, Brother Fluffy!" :S