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Ok, After the Attack squig discussion and the discussion of 'CCW bonus attacks' combined with Powerklaws, I had a question when I observed a 5th edition demo run by a GW shop today.

Background: In 3rd and 4th edition (old codex), Orks had 4 main types of CC effects:
*Regular attack (shoota boyz)
*Choppaz +4 armor save (slugga boyz)
*Burnaz Power Weapon (burna boyz)
*Powerklawz (Nobz)

It was COMMON that our basic troop would have a base of 2 attacks, be given a choppa for 2 +4 save attacks and then ad a SLUGGA for an additional attack which had the Choppa effect. There was no separate dice rolls. When I assaulted with 10 boyz, there was no 20 choppaz and 10 sluggaz. This was also the case with Powerklawz. If a Nob had 3 attacks and bumped it up to 4 with a Slugga, all 4 attacks were considered POWERFISTS. It was also not too uncommon to run Powerfist/Choppa (2 one handed weapons) so characters could choose between initiative or powerfist depending on the situation.

This was how the army played for years and in every GT I ever played in.

Now comes 5th edition. And with Choppaz gone, the issue is 'resolved' so to speak for the majority of the ork models. But what about NOBZ with Power Klawz? It says Powerfists do not get a bonus attack from CCW like a slugga.

So does it mean that Ork characters, like a Nob have 2 choices:
*3 base attacks as a powerfist
OR
*3 base attacks as a powerfist + 1 CCW bonus as a regular attack

And does that mean I get to strike in initiative with that 1 attack and then powerklaw with the rest? can I mix and match so 2 as regular and 2 as powerklaw? See where this is going? Dice segmented rolls is a bad thing and I thought they were trying to avoid this in 5th.

If this is the case, there are a whole lotta 4th editioners that are going to need to change some brain thoughts as GW was having the warboss model whoop up with this Slugga +1 powerklaw. This is a pretty big change for Orkies just in a general way of thinking.

nkelsch wrote:
So does it mean that Ork characters, like a Nob have 2 choices:
*3 base attacks as a powerfist
OR
*3 base attacks as a powerfist + 1 CCW bonus as a regular attack

And does that mean I get to strike in initiative with that 1 attack and then powerklaw with the rest? can I mix and match so 2 as regular and 2 as powerklaw? See where this is going? Dice segmented rolls is a bad thing and I thought they were trying to avoid this in 5th.

Even in 4th edition you made all of your attacks with a SINGLE weapon. You could not decide to split them up between the weapons you were using. It's the same in 5th. All of your attacks are made with a single weapon, except now you can't decide to forgo any 'special' attacks.. So, not counting any other bonus attacks a Nob in 4th edition with a power klaw and slugga would have had 4 attacks (3 base, +1 for two close combat weapons) while in 5th edition he would only have 3 attacks (3 base, no bonus attacks unless equipped with two power klaws).

Ghaz wrote:Even in 4th edition you made all of your attacks with a SINGLE weapon. You could not decide to split them up between the weapons you were using. It's the same in 5th. All of your attacks are made with a single weapon, except now you can't decide to forgo any 'special' attacks.. So, not counting any other bonus attacks a Nob in 4th edition with a power klaw and slugga would have had 4 attacks (3 base, +1 for two close combat weapons) while in 4th edition he would only have 3 attacks (3 base, no bonus attacks unless equipped with two power klaws).

So in 5th that Slugga does basically nothing unless you choose to forgo your Powerfist attacks.

NOB with a Slugga/Powerfist can do the following in 4th edition:
*3base+1CCW using the Slugga as a basic CCW and the Powerfist as a bonus CCW.
or
*3base+1CCW as a Powerfist and the slugga as a bonus CCW.

NOB with a Slugga/Powerfist can do the following in 5th edition:
*3base+1CCW using the Slugga as a basic CCW and the Powerfist as a bonus CCW.
or
*3base as a Powerfist and the slugga goes unused.

Is this right?

This is a noticeable change for ork players (not a huge deal) but a rule that I have seen GW people not realize and play it the OLD way. I know 5th edition is new and people are going to snap back to old rules but it is just something to be aware of and as an Ork player I want to make sure I am playing my army legit. And with the comeback of powerklaws in ork armies, those extra 'misplayed' attacks can add up quick.

No, you can't choose to forgo your powerklaw attacks.

If a model has a special CCW, all attacks are made using that special CCW's rules. You don't have the option to hit with the slugga instead.

So a model with a powerklaw will always attack with the powerklaw, and will only ever receive the +1 attack for a second weapon if that second weapon is also a powerklaw. (Which, as far as I'm aware, isn't currently possible for any model in the Ork Codex)

nkelsch wrote:So in 5th that Slugga does basically nothing unless you choose to forgo your Powerfist attacks.

Well you can still shoot with it in the Shooting phase, but insaniak has it covered for close combat.

nkelsch wrote:NOB with a Slugga/Powerfist can do the following in 5th edition:
*3base+1CCW using the Slugga as a basic CCW and the Powerfist as a bonus CCW.
or
*3base as a Powerfist and the slugga goes unused.

Note that no matter if the power fist is used as the 'primary' or 'secondary' weapon it will never provide an additional attack. For example, a model armed with a power weapon and a power fist would never get the bonus +1 Attack in close combat for having two single-handed weapons even if the player declared that he was using the power weapon. Basically power fists and thunder hammers work just as lightning claws have since 3rd edition.

insaniak wrote:No, you can't choose to forgo your powerklaw attacks.

If a model has a special CCW, all attacks are made using that special CCW's rules. You don't have the option to hit with the slugga instead.

So a model with a powerklaw will always attack with the powerklaw, and will only ever receive the +1 attack for a second weapon if that second weapon is also a powerklaw. (Which, as far as I'm aware, isn't currently possible for any model in the Ork Codex)

Yep. No such option as dual powerklaw. So Sluggas are basically for show as the basic gun you are stuck with.

They are pretty clear about mixing and matching, no more dual HtH single handed weapons. orks basically can;t touch the battlefield without a gun of some sort.

I am curious to see how other armies characters who used to constantly do the 'powerweapon or powerfist' thing are going to be impacted. As an Ork, I was always facing that in 4th because a powerweapon at I4 was usually more effective than a fist at 'strikes last'.

But if it is equal for all players I guess it isn't a big deal. I guess this was probably one of the reasons why they 'removed' choppas as Sluggas giving 4+ armor saves would conflict with the 5th edition way of doing things.

nkelsch wrote:So Sluggas are basically for show as the basic gun you are stuck with.

Well no, as Ghaz mentioned, you can still shoot with it.

i thought the rulebook said that powerklaws are treated just like a power fist in all aspects.

It is.Where are you taking this?

smart_alex wrote:i thought the rulebook said that powerklaws are treated just like a power fist in all aspects.

It is, which is a change for ork players who used to get a bonus Powerklaw attack out of any bonus CCW. Also orks are now locked down to 1 Weapon, 1 Gun. No more dual CCW setups so no ability to combine two weapons for 'either or' options. (Like my Burna/Powerklaw Feral Ork warboss! From 4th)

I saw GW people playing it the 4th edition way by giving their characters more attacks than they should due to sluggas.

insaniak wrote:No, you can't choose to forgo your powerklaw attacks.

If a model has a special CCW, all attacks are made using that special CCW's rules. You don't have the option to hit with the slugga instead.

So a model with a powerklaw will always attack with the powerklaw, and will only ever receive the +1 attack for a second weapon if that second weapon is also a powerklaw. (Which, as far as I'm aware, isn't currently possible for any model in the Ork Codex)

Are you saying you can't choose to turn off your powerclaw/fist if a model has one equipped. I'm not disputing that they don't get the +1 for the slugga, but I'm curious why you say you can't turn off the fist/claw.

Jayden63 wrote:... I'm curious why you say you can't turn off the fist/claw.

Because that's what the rules say. From page 35 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

All engaged models will fight in this turn’s Assault phase with their full number of Attacks and use any special close combat attack they have.

Not using your power fist/klaw be not using a 'special close combat attack' that the model has.

You can't turn off the claw because no such option is given.

Page 42 says that if the model is equipped with a special CCW, all of their attacks benefit from the weapon's bonuses. Not 'may' benefit...

They then go on to spell out what happens if the model is equipped with the different combinations. All of those combinations list rules that apply to models so equipped. No option is given to not use those rules. If the model has that combination of weapons, it will use those rules.

Page 35 (Who can fight) also states that models fight with their full number of Attacks, and use any special close combat attack that they have. Again, no option given to do otherwise.

The only time you have a choice as to whether or not to use a SCCW attack is if you have two different SCCW's... in which case you choose to attack with one or the other, and don't get the +1 attack for two weapons.

So a model with a powersword and powerfist can choose to hit with either the powersword or the powerfist.
A model with a pistol and powerfist always hits with the powerklaw.

Wow, does that suck for terminators. Always going last even if the fist isn't really needed.

Jayden63 wrote:Wow, does that suck for terminators. Always going last even if the fist isn't really needed.

I always hated when terminators assaulted my boyz and they said 'oh, we striking at initiative'

It means that squads better have some under equipped models to go at Init or else someone may assault you and wipe you out before you get to hit back.

Think about it this way. In 4th ed, once you paid the 25 points for the klaw, you were pretty much required to take/keep the slugga because that extra attack was too good to pass up. Now that you can't get that extra klaw attack, it opens up more choices for a better off hand shooting weapon, like a twin linked shoota or a combi-skorcha.

Not to spam, but I wonder when this thread is getting locked?