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I have heard here on Dakka, that it is now possible in 5th for a unit to shoot at a transport vehicle, destroy it, & then assault the disembarked passengers.

I tried it today in a practice game and my opponent had a complete embolism. After 5 mins of furious rulebook searching, I came up with nought.

My questions:
1. Is it possible?
2. What rules do we have to back it up? [more specifically where?]
3. Can it be applied to other ‘shoot one unit – kill it – assault another unit’ situations?

Thanks,
*Longgrim*


-= Ork Blood is Green, always has been, no badly drawn picture of a Space Puppy killing Catachins in green camo is going to make me think otherwise =-

Yes, page 67. right column about half way down.

3. The only place this works is in this special case. i.e. charging a unit that just got out of a transport you shot at and killed.

To further your question;

The rule states;

'However, if a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is allowed to assault according to the assault rules'

What happens if your unit fails to blow it up...but a different unit manages to. Can the unit that failed to blow up the vehicle (but did shoot at it) assault the unit that disembarked? As an example;

My Unit A shoots at Land Raider; Fails to blow it up
My Dev Unit C shoots later this phase, blows it up
Can Unit A assault guys that disembarked from Raider?

Options:

Yes, as you shot at the vehicle and that is the spirit of the rules
No, the rule clearly implies the unit must be the one that blew it up.

The rule simply states that it has to be destroyed by a ranged attack, and the unit had to have shot at it, so if you fail, but another unit succeeds, you can still charge the passengers.

Aduro wrote:The rule simply states that it has to be destroyed by a ranged attack, and the unit had to have shot at it, so if you fail, but another unit succeeds, you can still charge the passengers.

No. That's easter egg hunting of the worst kind.

'The unit' (note that it's 'the' rather than 'a') being referenced by the rule is the unit that destroyed the vehicle. You can't suddenly assault a different unit to the one you shot at just because some other unit destroyed your target afterwards.

As much as I'd like to agree with you Aduro, I gotta say Insaniak is totally correct on this.

the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers

as already stated, it says "the unit" not "a unit" or "any unit that turn".

My 2 pfennigs worth of opinion anyway.

~Bart

This is something you need to be careful about. If you blow up a transport do you have to exit by the access doors or can you place your guys anywhere around the destroyed vehicle? In some things like a waveserpent or falcon you could easily disembark outside of the charge range if your not forced to exit out the back.

Its not always a sure thing.

Yeah, the disemarking rule (when the vehicle is blown) isn't very clear to me;

"Destroyed-wrecked:
The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck."

Ok, so do models that are forced to disembark due to the wrecked result even have the option of emergency disembarkation? It doesn't specificy it under this rule, it simply states if they cannot disembark they are destroyed.

If they are allowed to emergency disembark, there is no penalty due to the wording;

"...the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn."

So does this mean the unit cannot do anything during my opponents next turn...or can they simply emergency disembark with no penalty whatsoever?

Jayden63 wrote:If you blow up a transport do you have to exit by the access doors or can you place your guys anywhere around the destroyed vehicle?

You're still disembarking from a vehicle, so the standard rules apply and the models must be placed within range of an access points.

Ghaz wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:If you blow up a transport do you have to exit by the access doors or can you place your guys anywhere around the destroyed vehicle?

You're still disembarking from a vehicle, so the standard rules apply and the models must be placed within range of an access points.

I think you are right, which is a big deal. Block the access point of a vehicle, then blow it up (wreck result). Everyone inside is dead.

Emergency Disembarking isn't a special case option. It's a standard part of the rules for disembarking.

When a unit disembarks, it is placed within 2" of the access points. If models can't be placed within 2" due to enemy models or terrain, then they perform an emergency disembark.

AgeOfEgos... when the rules say 'turn' they mean 'player turn'... so yes, at this point, a unit performing an emergency disembark in the opponent's turn really gets no penalty... although that really depends on how far you take the 'can't do anything' bit, which is hideously vague.

Does 'can't do anything' mean that they simply can't move or shoot... or does it mean that they can't react to a charge, or fight in close combat?

If the latter, then popping the vehicle in your turn and forcing an emergency disembark is still a huge advantage... destroy the vehicle with shooting, charge the unit that disembarks, which can't fight back and is therefore going to lose the combat provided you can inflict at least a single casualty...

I suspect, though, that at some point in the next 5 years or so, we'll see an FAQ that says that they can fight in assaults (as otherwise it gets awkward... if they can't fight, can they fall back? That's 'doing something' after all...) but can't move or shoot in their next turn, if forced to perform an emergency disembark in their opponent's turn.

insaniak wrote:Emergency Disembarking isn't a special case option. It's a standard part of the rules for disembarking.

When a unit disembarks, it is placed within 2" of the access points. If models can't be placed within 2" due to enemy models or terrain, then they perform an emergency disembark.

Well, I would agree with you but for this;

'If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an emergency disembarkation-the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark' pg. 57 col. 1 para 1

Now that is all good and well but lets take a look at the Vehicle Wrecked result again:

Destroyed-wrecked:
The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck."


So, two things. First, the Destroyed-wrecked result clearly states they are destroyed (with no option of emergency disembarkation). There would be no reason to specify this unless they wanted an exception to the normal disembark rules.

Second, if we ignored the above and followed the disembark rules then we would also be forced to follow the last part of the emergency disembarkation rule;

"If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark."

Which means if you made a wreck out of my tank while it was completely surrounded, I could claim the right to leave the unit inside it until they were able to disembark. I think this is why they made a specific ruling under 'Vehicle Wrecked' with the unit being destroyed. I might be misunderstanding it though?

Cheers

AgeOfEgos wrote:So, two things. First, the Destroyed-wrecked result clearly states they are destroyed (with no option of emergency disembarkation).

It doesn't need to give a specific allowance for emergency disembarking, because emergency disembarking is simply a part of the disembarking rules.

It would be like the Assault phase having to mention that when you move the charging unit, they are allowed to move in this direction... it's not necessary, because they can do it anyway under the regular rules for moving.

There would be no reason to specify this unless they wanted an exception to the normal disembark rules.

No, it needs to be mentioned because when disembarking voluntarily and blocked from doing so, you just don't disembark. When disembarking from a Damage result and blocked from doing so, the unit is destroyed.

Which means if you made a wreck out of my tank while it was completely surrounded, I could claim the right to leave the unit inside it until they were able to disembark.

No, you can't, because the 'Wrecked' result states that they are destroyed.


Step 1: You disembark within 2" of an access point.
Step 2: If you can't do so, you disembark within 2" of the vehicle.
Step 3: If you can't do so, you can't disembark.

The 'Wrecked' result adds in a Step 4: If you can't disembark, you are destroyed.

insaniak wrote:
.....
Step 2: If you can't do so, you disembark within 2" of the vehicle.
Step 3: If you can't do so, you can't disembark.

The 'Wrecked' result adds in a Step 4: If you can't disembark, you are destroyed.

Ahh, thanks insaniak that makes sense to me now (A hell of alot more than the book). So, it is better to stun a skimmer and block the access port than it is to blow it up (Provided it's carrying Harlies/Banshees). Also, you are right about the 'Can do nothing'...it's vague and because of turn sequence means little. I suppose we'll house rule that if you are forced to emergency disembark due to 'Vehicle Wreck', you will not be able to do anything on your next turn. If someone surrounds your tank and blows it up, they deserve a reward!

Thanks again.

This was common in 3rd edition. A common tacktic Speed freeks would block all the hatches on a landraider with either buggies then a Mek with that crazy penetration grenade would assault and blow it up. Everyone inside burned to death horribly.

Now it sounds like it would be close to impossible and probably a waste of time to block 2" from the whole hull of a vehicle.

there's something you're missing.

when you look at the phrase "unit who shot it," you can interpret it two ways:

1) unit who shot it (meaning unit who shot the vehicle and blew it up)

2) unit who shot it (meaning unit who fired the weapon)

these two ways of reading it can make the 'assault disembarked passengers' rule mean two different things.

When assaulting a vehicle with the idea you are going to block all the exit points; can you have members of the squad run around the vehicle or do they all need to take the shortest path the base contact?

We had this situation in a game this weekend.

You have to get into base, there is nothing about the shortest path except for the initial move.