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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 15:32:50
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Nasty Nob
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I have the speeders and can test those but not the attack bikes. I would like to hear from other who have MM attack bikes - are they good in 5th edition? I want to add a dedicated mobile AT platform to my Ultra list.
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A man's character is his fate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 16:27:38
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
Well I kind of moved near Toronto, actually.
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I would go with Speeders, I think, unless it was an all bike force.
I was thinking 3 or 4 Multi-melta/ Heavy flamer speeders for my Salamanders variant.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 16:29:22
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Nasty Nob
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I agree on those speeders - Melta weapons will be the work horse of AT in 5th and HF deal with all those cover saves nicely
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A man's character is his fate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 16:47:03
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Dispassionate Imperial Judge
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I use a squad of bikes, with a Meltagun in the unit and an attached Multi-Melta Attack Bike. Works nicely, and I prefer 7 wounds in a T5 squad to a single low-armour vehicle.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 17:02:55
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Executing Exarch
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There are advantages and disadvantages to both. The bikes are moer vulnerable to small arms fire but they get armor saves. The speeders are more resiliant, but they get shaken all the time. Turbo boosting the bikes adds some extra protection. All in all, I think one is about as good as the other at killing tanks.
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**** Phoenix ****
Threads should be like skirts: long enough to cover what's important but short enough to keep it interesting. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 17:04:30
Subject: Re:Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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I'd go the other way and argue for bikes, which can take cover saves, have two wounds, are much smaller targets, and three-up saves. In my experience light vehicles like the Speeders usually die from autocannon-like weapons, or run into bolters.
10 bolters firing at 3 speeders within 12 will result in:
13.4 hits
2.33 glances
.7 immobilizing (destroyed) or weapons destroyed results, which renders a speeder useless
Meanwhile, those same 10 bolters at bikes:
13.4 hits
4.46 wounds
1.48 unsaved wounds
That's not even one bike! You still have 3 multi-meltas.
Against, say, three auto-cannons in a IG weapons team:
Against Speeders
6 shots
3 hits
1.5 Penetrating hits, .5 glancing hits
Something like .86 destroyed/immoblized/weapon destroyed results
Against Bikes
6 shots
3 hits
2.5 wounds
.83 unsaved wounds, which will destroy just .415 bikes
Or, say, a 3 man Heavy Bolter team
Speeders
9 Shots
4.5 Hits
.75 glances, .75 pens
.81 destroys, immobilizes or weapon destroyed
Bikes
9 shots
4.5 hits
2.25 wounds
.83 unsaved wounds, which again is just .415 bikes
3 Lascannon Team
Speeders
3 shots
1.5 hits
.25 glances, 1.25 pens
.91 destroys, immobilizes or weapons destroyed
Bikes
3 shots
1.5 hits
1.25 wounds, no saves
So, isn't any cover, you lose a bike with a 25% chance of losing another. HOWEVER, this is 5th, lack of cover is not to be taken for granted.
In Cover, .75
So, a 75% of losing one bike.
So only against heavy weapons do bikes begin to suffer. The advantage of the speeder (ability to leap cover + speed) is negated by it's much larger target, inability to take cover, and additional venerablity to weapons carried by most MEQ, Orks, SoB, Tau, and Eldar! Meanwhile, the bike are more robust, can take cover better, and cannot be shot behind their own men. Turboboost gives them an option for great speed, and once their job is done they can become a tough tarpit by charging, say, a bunch of guardsmen or something.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 17:20:35
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
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Immobilized will not kill a speeder, UNLESS it went flat out (or in a squadron)
Speeders can also benefit from cover, considering how small they are it's not hard to hide 50% of them.
Just did a real-world check, Speeders can hide behind a Land Raider and still shoot their multi-melta's over it, getting a 4+ cover save (looks like over 50% to me). The way the multi-melta is mounted on the speeder, the barrel of it is just over the top of the land raider.
Yep, bikes can turbo-boost and get into hand to hand. They are also subject to morale tests from shooting casualties.
In other words, both have their advantages and disadvantages.
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I play
I will magnetize (now doing LED as well) your models for you, send me a DM!
My gallery images show some of my work
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 17:49:27
Subject: Re:Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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We are talking about squadrons. And if you take cover behind a land raider, what's the point to the speed and flying ability?
I stand by my point. Attack Bikes are the superior choice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 18:03:59
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
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Cuz the Land Raider moves 12 and if the speeder(s) plan on shooting they need to move up to 12 as well.
Depending on the points and the rest of his list, 3 speeder squadrons of 1 speeder can fit into a list nicely, eliminating the vehicle squadron problem.
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I play
I will magnetize (now doing LED as well) your models for you, send me a DM!
My gallery images show some of my work
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 18:18:29
Subject: Re:Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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...And leaving them prone to shaken/stun results, basically a death sentence for a AV10 speeder with one gun and one purpose. Besides, it also means you can't take assault marines.
And shouldn't your Land Raider be transporting a command squad or some terminators? What happens when the enemy has guns on the flank that can see past the Raider? What if a lucky lascannon kills the Land Raider on turn one? You're placing insane tactical restrictions onto the speeder when the Attack Bikes can just bypass it entirely. It is insanity to take a 250+ point tank, than use it to less than full effect by saddling it with babysitting duty for a speeder squadron. Stop trying to shoehorn the unit in where it doesn't belong.
If you're army is vehicle heavy, than speeders might be a better choice if you mount them on low stems and jump them over a screen of rhinos and whatnot. But in general terms, the advantage has gone to the bikes for 5th.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 19:32:34
Subject: Re:Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Dakka Veteran
Dayton, Ohio
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Gotta agree with open_sketchbook here, as painful as that is for me. I've got ten speeders with various loadouts that I'm shelving. Attack bikes are simply better suited for tank hunting in 5th edition.
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If more of us valued food and cheer and 40K over hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/12 22:43:24
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Tunneling Trygon
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Speeders can deepstrike and shoot the MM though. That is a definite advantage. Though I agree the bikes seem to be better for just normal deploying and manuvering.
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snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/13 02:20:06
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Nasty Nob
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Thank you Open_sketchbook for the insightful analysis. Now i just need to get some attack bikes
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A man's character is his fate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/13 04:28:39
Subject: Re:Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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Not even Deep Strike can redeem the speeder I'm afraid. The speeder should avoid getting too close to support infantry in it's tank-hunting duties because they will get shredded by a wide variety of special weapons and short-ranged guns carried by most factions. A plasma gun with nothing else to shoot at can't instant-kill an Attack Bike, but CAN kill a speeder in one shot and will do so 25% of the time, per shot. So a Marine rapid-firing a plasma gun has a 50% chance of killing the speeder which just dropped in from nowhere, where he wouldn't have had a target if you'd been using Attack Bikes, and even if he did they'd be hugging terrain for a 4+ giving our rapid-firing marine .556 unsaved wounds, still failing to kill a bike.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/08/13 04:37:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/08/13 23:28:33
Subject: Multi-Melta Attack Bikes or Multi-Melta Land Speeders or Neither
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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I would wait until we know the new unit price.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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