Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Trying to get to grips with the new edition and wondered if this has a good chance as a take all comers list:

Farseer bike, runes of warding, fortune 130
10 Warlocks bikes, enhance, 2x embolden, 2x destructor 495

8 Fire Dragons exarch w/dragon's breath flamer, crackshot 145
Wave Serpent w/spirit stones, shuriken cannon 110
8 Harlequins Shadowseer, 8x harlequin's kisses 206

3 Guardian Jetbikes shuriken cannon 76
3 Guardian Jetbikes shuriken cannon 76
3 Guardian Jetbikes shuriken cannon 76
6 Dire Avengers 72
Wave Serpent w/spirit stones, shuriken cannon 110

total 1496

Council will do its thing whilst having a fortuned 3+/4++ saves, ideally tying up two units at a time and not getting tar-pitted.
Quins as back up anti-MEQ and borrowing the avenger's serpent.
dragons have a bit of utility taking out vehicles/killing a few MEQs/flaming some hordes.
I'm thinking the army will need very careful coordination and target prioritisation to make sure that my fragile hard hitting units (quins and dragons) are not left out in the open vulnerable to counter charges/dakka. I will also need to work hard to preserve the delicate troop choices.

Is the council o'doom too many eggs in one basket?
Can I cope without prisms or any other ranged fire support?
Are the jetbike troops viable as scoring units given random game length?

Any advice or opinions are gratefully recieved.

Well, this army doesn't cut it for me. The Council is the best anvil unit in the game, but its not a hammer squad. You need the Harlies being close. I'd downgrade the Council to 6 Warlocks with enhance, embolden x2. Keep the Harlies behind for counterstrike.
Small Jetbike squads are an issue, one casualty and you have to take an Ld test. I'd take one squad of 6 Jetbikes and beef up the DA squad to 10 men.
An FD squad with 4 FDs plus 1 Exarch with crack shot should be enough to take down a nasty tank.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, this army doesn't cut it for me. The Council is the best anvil unit in the game, but its not a hammer squad. You need the Harlies being close. I'd downgrade the Council to 6 Warlocks with enhance, embolden x2. Keep the Harlies behind for counterstrike.
Small Jetbike squads are an issue, one casualty and you have to take an Ld test. I'd take one squad of 6 Jetbikes and beef up the DA squad to 10 men.
An FD squad with 4 FDs plus 1 Exarch with crack shot should be enough to take down a nasty tank.

Thanks for the input wuestenfux. I agree the harlies are there to back up the council.

I'm not sure about dropping the council to 6 strong as then any casualties really do start to hurt in terms of the number of attacks they are throwing. I'm also a bit loath to drop down to just two troops choices, I understand about the leadership issues with bikes but if I bring them on from reserve and boost them around as much as possible my opponent should have more pressing matters to deal with.

I've used this eigth dragon config for a while now (in 4th edition admittedly) and it has been a game winner at times. Its a surprisingingly flexible unit which is effective against a variety of units. I have been tempted to use the exarch's crackshot with a fusion gun to remove cover saves but it does reduce their utility.

This is another list which is a little more towards what you have suggested:

Farseer bike, runes of warding, fortune 130
8 Warlocks bikes, enhance, 2x embolden, 2x destructor 405

8 Fire Dragons exarch w/dragon's breath flamer, crackshot 145
Wave Serpent w/spirit stones, shuriken cannon 110
8 Harlequins Shadowseer, 8x harlequin's kisses 206

3 Guardian Jetbikes shuriken cannon 76
3 Guardian Jetbikes shuriken cannon 76
6 Dire Avengers 72
Wave Serpent w/spirit stones, shuriken cannon 110
5 Dire Avengers 72
Wave Serpent w/spirit stones, shuriken cannon 110

I'm just not happy with having over 500 points of filler troops and transports but they are needed to secure objectives. I've got various load outs for the troop options including 2x3 bikes, 10 avengers plus a storm guard bbq squad (2x flamers, warlock with destructor) along with a serpent. Decisions decisions. Anyway I'll likely play test the above list tomorrow.

P.S. Nice write up on your GT games, wuestenfux.

The DA squads are too small. If the Serpent goes down, they get an S4 hit (from 6 two will die). I'd drop the Jetbikes and take two 10 men DA squads; two scoring units should be fine at 1500 pts.

djn wrote: I'm also a bit loath to drop down to just two troops choices...

This is a bad way to look at things. The number of troop choices you have means little to nothing in 5th edition. What does matter is how many troop models you have. Since every model is scoring rather than every unit, it doesn't matter much if you have 2 squads of 3 or one squad of 6. The enemy still has to kill 6 models to make you not scoring. Lets look at some of the other factors.

Two squads can be in 2 places at once. This is nice at the end of the game when you can possibly grab 2 objectives, but it also means that you can be shot at and charged from 2 different locations, effectively doubling the area from which you can be killed. Or if you keep the 2 squads together, its no better than them being one squad.

Two squads take leadership tests sooner. This one is a killer for small squads. Jetbikes fail leadership tests 28% of the time.

Two squads lack hand to hand punch. If a smaller squad ends up in hand to hand, it won't take much to kill it and it won't have much punch to give back to the enemy. This will mean you don't have any time to get backup units to them to help out.

Two squads have an easier time getting cover. This means they have a slightly easier time getting cover saves than the larger squads, but I don't think its all that significant since you can turbo boos for a cover save anyway and you have 3+ armor.

Two squads can spread their fire. Again, another ability that is of minimal use since 3 bikes just don't put out a significant volume of fire.

I see your point Phoenix. However with the potential of only being able to capture two objectives maximum, in the best case scenario, that is quite worrying to me.

Still not completely happy with this list but I'll try it out at some point. It also gives me a couple of TL EMLs which could be handy.

Farseer bike, runes of warding, fortune 130
10 Warlocks bikes, enhance, 2x embolden, 2x destructor 495

8 Fire Dragons exarch w/dragon's breath flamer, crackshot 145
Wave Serpent w/spirit stones, shuriken cannon 110
8 Harlequins Shadowseer, 8x harlequin's kisses 206

10 Dire Avengers 120
Wave Serpent w/spirit stones, EML 130
10 Dire Avengers 120
Wave Serpent w/spirit stones, EML 130

Just thought I could have a couple of extra harlequins instead of the EMLs.

Farseer bike, runes of warding, fortune 130
10 Warlocks bikes, enhance, 2x embolden, 2x destructor 495

Its a perfect anvil army but not a hammer unit. Some bad rolls and some Warlocks are gone.

8 Fire Dragons exarch w/dragon's breath flamer, crackshot 145

This squad should go tank hunting. The flamer negates the Exarch's BS 2.
Take a 6 men squad incl. an Exarch with melta gun and crack shot.

However with the potential of only being able to capture two objectives maximum, in the best case scenario, that is quite worrying to me.

Don't worry. They can occupy two objectives while the rest of the army can take on enemy troops.

djn wrote:I see your point Phoenix. However with the potential of only being able to capture two objectives maximum, in the best case scenario, that is quite worrying to me.[

Trying to capture all the objectives in 5th edition is a really bad idea. The way to go is to capture one objective for sure and then contest the rest.

8 Fire Dragons exarch w/dragon's breath flamer, crackshot 145

This squad should go tank hunting. The flamer negates the Exarch's BS 2.
Take a 6 men squad incl. an Exarch with melta gun and crack shot.

The exarch with a melta gun and crack shot is more point efficient at killing vehicles in cover than normal dragons are. However normal dragons are better for killing targets out of cover. With that information, plan according to what you tend to see on the field.

Phoenix wrote:

djn wrote:I see your point Phoenix. However with the potential of only being able to capture two objectives maximum, in the best case scenario, that is quite worrying to me.[

Trying to capture all the objectives in 5th edition is a really bad idea. The way to go is to capture one objective for sure and then contest the rest.

ding ding ding winna winna!

Ambitious players go for more than one objective. Imagine a CSM army with Rhinos able to occupy most of the 2+W3 objectives in turn 2. This is a bad tactics as not all occupying troops are supported and eventually can be easily taken down.

Ambitious = hasty, hasty = careless.... careless leads to the dark side. Seriously though, if they are doing this, then theyve just opened themselves up to being taken out piecemeal by focused fire, which in turn leads to a reversed methodology used in the Vietnam war... you leapfrog whilst reducing their units (bolstering yours - more or less attrition damage), you zip a couple of your units off from the main group on turn 4 onwards and hold an objective.. after youve used focused fire to methodically take your army apart... which was spread out all over the board holding multiple objectives, unable to assist each other (like an army should!). Its about keeping that center of gravity folks... lose it and you crumble.

Well I got a taste of just how unforgiving this army can be.

I went with the 8 strong council, 8 dragons and 8 harlequins. Plus the 2x 3 bikes, 10 avengers and storm squad in a serpent.

Played guard first and had some atrocious saves for the council e.g. 3 warlocks dead to 18 las gun shots! Although to be fair they should never have been in rapid fire range in the first place. But I lost two to a hellhound and this didn't leave me enough warlocks to contact three of his squads on the charge so I ended up wiping out two and being a sitting duck.

Anyway the crux of it is I learnt alot about how not to use the council and realised it likely is too many eggs in one basket as my next game was vs space wolves including a rune priest and hood. Suffice to say I failed one hood test and my council got minced.

Both games I can identify one point where if I had stayed in assualt then the game could have turned my way. It just seems such a risky way to play.

I also really missed my dual prisms which I've been using for a long time. I had no ability to get stuck into units from the off and its turn two sometimes three before I'm putting any hurt on my opponent. Having two squads foot slogging was also a completely stupid decision with Eldar.

Feeling pretty demoralised as the two chaps I have played haven't beaten me in about 18 months. Still its all part of the learning process.

I've taken some of wuestenfux advice and come up with this fully mech army but it still doesn't seem to be good enough in my book.

farseer doom, fortune, jetbike, spirit stones, runes of warding 175
6 warlocks jetbikes, enhance, embolden, 2x destructors 310

8 harlequins shadowseer, 8x kisses 206

5 fire dragons exarch, crackshot 97
serpent, spirit stones, shuriken cannon 110
9 dire avengers 108
serpent, spirit stones, shuriken cannon 110
9 dire avengers 108
serpent, spirit stones, shuriken cannon 110

falcon spirit stones, holofields, shuriken cannon 165

total 1499

Theres more points in the seer and less in the council but doom should work well with the harlequins and avengers. not sure about the falcon but it was the only way I could think to get fully mechanised.

Cheers again for the help and the tip about securing one and contesting the rest.

edit: small change to the list to fit in 2x destructors.

Wait- are the Harlies going in the Dragons' ride while the Dragons get the Falcon?

Funny how 5th lets you get away with transport-juggling if you pay a one-turn tax to do so.

Stelek wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

djn wrote:I see your point Phoenix. However with the potential of only being able to capture two objectives maximum, in the best case scenario, that is quite worrying to me.[

Trying to capture all the objectives in 5th edition is a really bad idea. The way to go is to capture one objective for sure and then contest the rest.

ding ding ding winna winna!

In a one of game absolutely.

Question is how will margins of victory be determined in tournaments for objective scenarios? What if only winning by one objective would only qualify for a minor victory? Not saying that's the case, but we'll see/

The Jetbike Council is too pricey for what you get.
In view of the list, I'd mount the Harlies in the Falcon, 6 with kisses, no Shadowseer as they are not making difficult terrain tests and so charge with their normal initiative, i.e., plasma grenades are not required.

wuestenfux wrote:The Jetbike Council is too pricey for what you get.
In view of the list, I'd mount the Harlies in the Falcon, 6 with kisses, no Shadowseer as they are not making difficult terrain tests and so charge with their normal initiative, i.e., plasma grenades are not required.

I tend to agree about the council, I'm thinking its not for me in 1500 point games. I'll save them for larger points games and apocalypse.

Hadn't realised the new assualt rules make the shadowseer's grenades redundant, that makes them a little cheaper. I've had a complete rethink of what I want out of my 5th ed army and I've gone in different direction to see how feasible a mech list could be:

autarch fusion gun, power weapon, mandiblasters 100

6 fire dragons exarch, crackshot 113
serpent stones, shuriken cannon 110
6 harlequins 6x kisses 132

8 striking scorpions exarch, claw, stalker, shadowstrike 180

10 dire avengers 120
serpent stones, shuriken cannon 110
10 dire avengers 120
serpent stones, shuriken cannon 110

prism stones 125
prism stones 125
falcon stones, brightlance 155
1500

- Six skimmers which I will attempt to keep moving or obscured for the 4++ save should be quite tough to take down, not as tough as I'd like but still.
- The autarch will saddle up with either the dragons or avengers depending on my opponent. He doesn't have much cc cloat but is cheap and has the +1 for reserves. Banshee mask is just a points filler.
- Not 100% about the scorpions but I just really like the idea of them being able to come on from a short edge and tie up shooty static units such as lootas, devs or even assualt say a basilisk. Although against a decent player they will deploy with this in mind I'm sure.
- I've got a pair of prisms in for the ranged fire support, which I've been missing and will try to keep them at a safe distance and obscured. I am concerned about any units which can either drop in or flank being able to deal easily with the prisms.

This is almost exactly the same as my 4th ed list but without the safety net of holofields. I'm thinking if I can keep everything together, compact and use similar tactics as in 4th of flanking and focussing firing this may work. However, I'm also a little concerned the scorpions are a weak point being the only unmechanised unit?
Can this type of mech eldar hybrid shooty/assualt army be effective?

edit: tweaked the load out of the autarch, added a dragon, added a bright lance to the falcon and removed two harlequins.